The GoF Train Scene - and beyond (was:Re: Humanity, Kant, Caricatures, and Draco

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 146777

> >>Magpie:
> I think Betsy's argument here may be coming across more strongly 
> than she means it in terms of it sounding like Draco is very 
> conscious of things that he probably isn't.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Yes, thank you Magpie.  When I say Draco stood for Cedric, I don't 
mean he wrapped himself in the Hufflepuff flag and started singing 
the Order fight song.  All that I'm looking for is a tiny bit of 
positive emotion towards Cedric, a sense that Draco would not have 
predicted Cedric's death as being Voldemort's opening shot.  

>> Magpie:
> So with Draco I think the point Betsy is making is not that Draco 
> was best buddies with Cedric and Krum and secretly cried into his 
> pillow over Cedric's death.  She's just saying that we shouldn't 
> assume he didn't have to repress any feelings of fear or confusion 
> over Cedric ending up dead and that this could play into the train 
> scene.  I think he is able to repress them and postpone any real 
> awakening in GoF. In OotP he has to deal with some different      
> issues connected to his father's involvement with the DEs.  It's   
> in HBP, imo, where he's really cracking.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
The interesting thing is that a lot of Draco fans (myself included) 
were hoping for some sort of fall out from this final scene in GoF 
to occur in OotP.  And we had to wait until HBP.  I think part of it 
was that JKR needed the entire Malfoy family to sour on Voldemort 
before she could put Draco through his awakening (Draco would 
*never* betray his family).  But I think another part may have been 
the need to have Draco's development not leap frog over Harry's.   

Draco was in a sort of holding pattern in OotP.  He took the power 
Umbridge offered, but I never got the sense he thought well of her, 
and he kept it on a school-boy level (taking unfair points, 
insulting Harry's mom, etc.).  Harry, who had realized this was 
beyond school-boy games by the end of GoF, pretty much left Draco 
behind.  But when HBP hit suddenly Draco was forced to grow-up, and 
interestingly enough, Harry was the one playing catch-up.

> >>Betsy said in msg. #146633:
> > The end of GoF is the first time Draco is faced with what his
> > parents' politics *really* means. It must have been a huge shock.
> > One I think he did his best to ignore, until HBP made it        
> > impossible to do so anymore. In some ways, I think Draco's       
> > journey is more interesting than Harry's.

> >>Annemehr:
> I just took "huge shock" to imply some consciousness of his       
> feelings, but of course anyone (especially a teenager) can have an 
> overload of strong, conflicting feelings without necessarily being 
> able to identify them, especially when one is squelching some of   
> them.

Betsy Hp:
And I do think Draco did some serious squelching.  I think any hint 
of conscious doubt would have been met with some major brick walls.  
And I think Draco marching into the Gryffindor compartment and 
spitting his defiance right into the lion's eye, as it were, was his 
best attempt at regaining his balance.  (Though I do think some 
hairline fractures probably remained, or at least, there were some 
new weak spots in Draco's belief system.)

> >>Jen D:
> > I am missing something! How can we assume Draco knew about Fake!
> > Moody?
> > <snip>

> >>Carol:
> I asked the same question earlier and didn't receive a satisfactory
> answer. Dean Thomas in OoP refers to Fake!Moody as a "maniac" and
> Umbridge somehow knows (from old lesson plans??) that he          
> demonstrated Unforgiveable curses and even used them on the        
> students, but there's no indication that either of them knows his 
> real identity or that he was a Death Eater.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
For myself, I don't think it's necessary that Draco know Fake!Moody 
was actually Barty Crouch, Jr., card carrying Death Eater.  All 
Draco needed to know was that Fake!Moody was working against 
Dumbledore, probably with Voldemort, and was partially responsible 
for what happened in the maze.

I think canon implies pretty heavily that all the students knew that 
Fake!Moody was a fake by the time of the Leaving Feast.  I'm sure 
they knew that Fudge considered him an enemy and that he'd had his 
soul sucked by a Dementor.  We know how affective the school rumor 
mill is.  We know that Fudge and McGonagall "discussed" Fudge's 
action in the school hallways where any portrait or ghost could 
listen in.  And we know that Dumbledore wanted the student body as 
informed as possible.  He wouldn't tell Harry's version of the tale 
(that's Harry's business), but I don't see why he'd squelch the 
knowledge that Fake!Moody had been a dark agent.

Honestly, I think it's strange to assume that the student-body 
*didn't* realize something was up with Moody.  

I'm not sure how to piece this in, but I was asked, up-thread, why I 
thought Draco was capable of compassion, and I said that he loved 
his parents.  I wanted to respond to these responses.

> >>Alla:
> <snip>
> Voldemort loved his mother too. Does it make him a compassionate
> person?
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Actually, Voldemort doesn't love his mother.  That's a big part of 
what makes him Voldemort -- his lack of love, or lack of 
compassion.  It's why he thinks he can ask his followers to 
completely betray and destroy their families.  Because he'd do the 
same in their place.  (Voldemort would not risk death to save his 
mother.)

> >>a_svirn:
> <snip>
> The reverse is also true – his parents love Draco. Does that make 
> Lucius any less of a Death Eater? Or Narcissa any less ruthless?
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
In a strange way, it does.  At least, Narcissa will risk her life 
and her family's fortune to safe-guard her son.  Sure, she's 
absolutely ruthless about it.  But it's a ruthlessness born of 
compassion.  (Ruthlessness is not necessarily an evil trait, nor is 
it one unique to Death Eaters or their ilk.)

If Lucius does love Draco than he'd agree with Narcissa's actions in 
defying the Dark Lord to protect their son.  Which would make him 
less of a Death Eater than Bellatrix who wishes she has children she 
can sacrifice to Voldemort, and Barty who eagerly kills his father 
and makes a mockery of his mother's sacrifice.


> >>Magpie: 
> <snip>
> The thing with Draco is that he's a supporting character but he    
> does have a character arc, one that will become important in HBP.  
> It's rather unique amongst the younger characters, the kind of    
> thing he's used for--many people had put him in a different role.  
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Now I'm intrigued!  What do you see Draco being used for?  For 
myself, part of my interest in Draco is that in order to grow up he 
needs to reach beyond his parents.  (I disagree that he was 
brainwashed, as Tropicwhale suggests in post #146771.  He's just 
been raised a certain way.)  So I think Draco will end up growing 
further than Harry.  Harry just needs to become what his parents and 
mentors hoped he would be.  Draco has to reject his parents plans 
and create plans of his own.  It's like Harry is Tom Sawyer, but 
Draco is Huckleberry Finn.  And I did find Huckleberry the more 
interesting character.

Betsy Hp (who snipped and grabbed and snipped some more, from posts 
all up and down this thread)