The Evil of Voldemort; Lily's choice

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 146794

Carol:
> Can you give me any *canonical* evidence (outside the interviews)
> that LV saw Lily as anything more than a "silly girl" or 
> Harry's "Muggle mother"? Yes, I know that the Prophecy states that
> the *parents* had "thrice defied him" and he knew that Lily was a
> member of the Order of the Phoenix, whose members the DE's were
> picking off one by one. 

Jen: You can believe Voldemort if you want, a known liar and poor 
historian <g>. Not agreeing with the canon offered so far isn't the 
same as saying there's no canonical evidence. You gave the examples 
of Hagrid and the DE's being told to 'stand aside' but they are not 
analogous to Lily's particular situation. The fact remains that no 
one else in canon who actively worked against Voldemort was offered 
multiple chances to live except Lily. And besides 'thrice defying 
him' and being an Order member, Lily was on Dumbledore's side and 
the mother of the boy born with the power to defeat the Dark Lord. 
She's a fairly unique enemy. 

I think the explanation that Voldemort underestimated *Lily* as well 
as the ancient magic, is a wonderful explanation which works well 
with the story. We just haven't been told that. There have been 
multiple times this simple explanation could have been dropped into 
the story and hasn't been. Resolving the mystery of Godric's Hollow 
is meant to be JKR's grand unveiling it looks like to me--the story 
started there and we will find out about Lily in 'two parts because 
both are very important in what Harry ends up having to do.' 
(Connection, 1999) I just don't think Voldemort's words alone are 
enough to discount the possibilities.

Carol:
> And that "foolish" sacrifice, in *JKR's* view, makes Lily's
> sacrifice even more heroic than James's--because Lily didn't
> have to die and James did. And it's Lily, stepping unarmed in
> front of LV and offering herself in Harry's place, whose death
> confers the blood protection that James's death does not. (That, I
> think, is what JKR is trying to convey in the interview.) Again,
> Lily's choice to die, not LV's motivation in allowing that choice,
> is what matters. 

Jen: That's fine and a beautiful moment. I want to see it in the 
story. You want more canon for why Voldemort might view Lily as 
something other than a 'silly girl', well I want more than a shady 
interview answer. JKR was asked a simple question which you say has 
a simple answer, and she chose not to answer the question directly 
or even hedge. She was revealing information left and right, said 
HBP would close the doors on many theories.  Until she's more 
definitive, I will go on believing Voldemort's actions were unusual.

Carol:
> Once he told her to "stand aside," for whatever reason, he made
> the choice possible. And when she refused the chance to live and 
> he killed her, the ancient magic was invoked. There is, IMO, no 
> need to look for any motive beyond the desire to get down to the
> business of killing Harry in LV's words. To do so would be like 
> saying, "Oh, he wanted Hagrid to live or he'd have killed him in
> CoS" or "He wanted the Death Eaters to live or he'd have killed 
> them in GoF." The DEs and Hagrid were ordered to "stand aside" 
> because they were in his way, preventing him from accomplishing 
> his objective. I see no difference in his treatment of Lily, to
> whom he uses the exact same phrase.

Jen: I disagree. Voldemort had a reason not to kill Hagrid, two 
reasons: Alive he was a scapegoat and dead he was another murder and 
the final reason for closing Hogwarts and sending Riddle back to the 
orphange. And I don't get the DE example, given the fact they are 
his servants, not his opponents. Lily is not useful as a scapegoat 
or a servant. 

Tonks:
> As to why Lily didn't have to die. There have been many ideas here.
> One is that she worked in the Department of Mysteries and LV needed
> to get information from her. Someone once said that since she was a
> Mudblood she wasn't worth the bother. Also he may have wanted to
> torture her with the memory of her son and husband's death so that
> she would give LV the secrets in the Department of Mysteries that
> would help him. <snip> OR it isn't anything really big and when we
> find out we will all say.. "huh?? that is all there was to it?!"

Jen: I do wonder about that last bit. More than once I've read into 
JKR's words in an interview only to be disappointed with the 
outcome. I do think Godric's Hollow will live up to expectations, 
whether there's more to Lily's story or not.

Actually, my all-time favorite explanation for the Lily moment was 
sort of what Andrea mentioned upthread and what Orna went into 
greater detail in posts #146389 & 142817, that Voldemort expected 
Lily to act selfishly and save herself just as Merope had acted 
selfishly by dying (in his eyes) and not saving him from 
abandonment. It's hard to make the case given how detached Voldemort 
is from his past, yet it might fit in with the psychological 
analysis of Voldemort and his irrational obssessions.

Jen R.