CHAPDISC: HBP8, Snape Victorious

[iris_ft]

No: HPFGUIDX 146806

Apologies for bringing back an already "old" tread (discussions on 
this group are so fast!), and congratulations to Sherry for the 
thought provoking job.

Discussion questions

1. This is the first mention of nonverbal spells in the book, though 
it
becomes important later as we know. Did it catch you at all at this 
point,
or did you just pass over it as you wondered how he'd get out of this
pickle?

Yes, I thought it could be important when I read the book for the 
first time. And I think what is here just a narrative detail is 
actually a key element. From the previous chapters, we could guess 
that Dumbledore was going to play an important part in the novel, 
and here, when Harry tries to liberate himself, he tries to imitate 
his mentor. We couldn't find a better metaphor for what will happen 
all along the rest of the book. Dumbledore is more than an example 
for Harry; he's the one who shows him the path, his guide. And when 
we reach the end of chapter 26, we can say that Harry has perfectly 
managed to follow him:, even to overpass him. He's by now he who 
protects, not the contrary.  He has become Dumbledore's equal and is 
nearly ready to take the whole burden. But it all starts while he is 
helpless aboard the Hogwarts Express, and thinks of the old wise 
man. By the way, he already imitates him unwillingly: his nose is 
broken, like Dumbledore's.
More generally, we can say that Harry's situation foreshadows what 
will happen at the end of the book, on the Astronomy Tower. Harry 
will be petrified under the Cloak again, and as he'll try to reach 
Snape after Dumbledore's death, he'll have to run through bloody 
corridors.
One last thing about this sequence: Dumbledore's silences can be 
very eloquent indeed. We are told that Dumbledore is able to perform 
magic without speaking. It's not the only thing he does silently. 
There's what Dumbledore declares and what he doesn't say. I finished 
the book with the uncomfortable but exciting feeling that maybe, we 
should care for what remains unsaid or invisible, because it's 
probably where the truth is hidden. There's the Room of Requirement 
in the castle, the Invisibility Cloak, the silent spells. In HBP, JK 
Rowling gives much importance to what remains secret, or 
unformulated. Is the truth hiding in what she didn't write? 


2. Harry despises himself for wishing there would be the sound of 
panic,
people wondering what had happened to him. He has always hated his
celebrity, but in this situation, it might have helped. Later in the
chapter, when he is at the Gryffindor table and feeling embarrassed, 
he
hopes the students will just assume he was off doing something 
heroic. How
do you feel about his thoughts in this situation? Does it seem
inconsistent, practical, or natural to you?

I find it touching, because it shows Harry's fragility. He's the 
Chosen One, but he isn't ready to take the burden. Harry isn't ready 
yet to assume his new position, even if he knows that he has by now 
responsibilities. He despises himself for hoping that the others 
will worry for him or try to help him. He knows that he's alone on 
the path. It's the first evidence of the clairvoyance he'll develop 
little by little all along the book, and that'll make him 
declare "I'm the Chosen One", or realize that "there was no 
comforting whisper in the dark that he was safe really (chapter 
26)". He will protect the others, not the contrary.
But for the moment, he's still very fragile, and in spite of his 
beginning clairvoyance, in spite of his self consciousness, he would 
be happy if he could be travelling with the rest of the students. 
Harry is exceptional, but he would like to stay with the others. 
He's quite the opposite of Tom Marvolo Riddle in chapter 13, who is 
aware of his particular status and remains willingly isolated 
because he despises the others. Harry, when he is isolated, feels 
hopeless, and he hates Malfoy, who left him alone and is with them 
in one of the carriages going to the school.
Harry doesn't understand everything yet. For example, he doesn't 
understand that Draco is a chosen one too, even if he travels the 
wrong path. Concerning him, Harry will go from pure loathing to 
compassion. He is on the right path, even if for the moment it's 
painful, as often in his journey.
You wrote at the end of your post you didn't know there were so many 
things in this chapter. You are right; far from being a "transition 
chapter", it's one of the most crucial in the novel, because it 
shows 
important things concerning Harry.
 
4. Some have said that we didn't see enough of Harry grieving for 
Sirius.
What do you think of this scene, with Harry's thoughts about Tonks 
and his
inability to talk to her about Sirius? Does this show his grief to 
you?

Of course it shows his grief, and also his fragility. When people 
loose someone they love, they don't react in the same way. Some of 
them need to talk, other need to remain silent. I suppose Harry 
belongs in the second category, probably because of his childhood. 
As an abused child, he probably had to learn to keep his feelings 
for himself. His silence is like a shield.

5. I just noticed this when working on this chapter and actually 
reading it
in braille instead of hearing audio where I can't tell how a 
sentence is
punctuated. Snape tells Tonks that Harry is

"quite--ah--safe in my hands."

Is there any implication in his words here, or is it just done for 
emphasis, to add some sharpness, for Harry's benefit? Or for Tonks? 
Just curious about how this was written. Any thoughts?

I like that narrative detail, because it summarises Snape so well!
In this chapter, Snape is shown in his inherent ambiguity. Holding a 
lantern, he reminds of Diogenes, or of the Hermit in Tarot. They are 
positive references (notice by the way that Diogenes was cynical, 
just like old Severus). At the same time, he's as usually despective 
and sarcastic. And there's more: in chapter 17, young Voldemort 
appears on the doorstep of the House of Gaunt holding an old- 
fashioned lamp. He's looking for someone too. We can't deny there's 
a similitude between the two apparitions. And isn't this similitude 
disturbing, if we remember that in chapter 17, young Voldemort is 
about to kill his father? I'm completely unable to decide whether 
Snape is a true villain or whether he's wearing a mask. May as it 
be, in this chapter, he plays for Harry the part of the gatekeeper. 
And we have the strange feeling that he's actually he who rules the 
castle. Notice what JK Rowling writes when she describes the way the 
chains that close the gate move: "the chains SNAKED backwards" 
and "they SLITHERED, clinking, back into place". The detail is 
rather disturbing. It sounds as if Hogwarts were ensnared by snakes, 
and we know that snakes have a negative connotation in the series. 
These chains remind of the Devil Snare, or of the Basilisk. In other 
words, Slytherin is surrounding the castle, even ruling it, maybe. 
Dumbledore made everything he could to protect the place from an 
exterior attack. But this time, the attack will come from inside, 
after nearly one year of preparation, just like in PS/SS, CoS and 
GoF. That's probably why JK Rowling makes a reference to the flying 
car of CoS. In this book too, Harry doesn't come to the school with 
the others, and Snape welcomes him. Harry had to fight a Basilisk 
and a memory at the end of his second year. This time, he'll fight 
Snape. The snake is ready to bite, waiting for its time to come. 
Shall we consider that Snape is like the snake in the fable, you 
know, the one that bites the helpful hand that had saved it when it 
was in danger? What does he mean actually when he declares that 
Harry "is quite –ah – safe in[ his] hands"? Does he hold a lantern 
because he will become Harry's guide, through his old Potions book? 
Or does he hold a lantern because he's like Lucifer, ready to rebel 
himself against he who gave him his privileged position? We'll have 
to wait till Book seven to know the truth, supposing JK Rowling is 
ready to tell us.

6. Later in HBP, we learn that Tonks' patronus is now a wolf, and 
we're led
to suspect it has changed because of her love for Remus. But here at 
this
point, we don't know any of that yet. Why do you think Snape made 
these
comments about her patronus? He hasn't seemed to have any particular
feelings one way or the other about Tonks previously; in fact, did 
we ever
see them interact before? Why does he say that her patronus is weak? 
What
do you think about the whole significance of the changing patronus? 
Does it
foreshadow events yet to come, or are there implications about Lupin 
in
Snape's comments?

When we read the book for the first time, we wonder whether the "new 
Tonks" is important or not.  Her visible change puzzles the reader. 
Her strange and unusual behaviour could mean that she could be into 
trouble because she's a double agent. We'll finally learn that she 
loves Lupin; so we can consider her change as a trick JK Rowling 
uses in order to mislead the reader. What is actually interesting 
about Tonks is that she seems "older and much more serious and 
purposeful." And Harry wonders: "Was this all the effect of what had 
happened at the Ministry?" We could say these sentences fit Harry 
too. 
JK Rowling masters perfectly the art of misleading her reader; I 
think the Patronus is an example of this art.
But it could be also an important reminder. I think that, all along 
the sequence "Harry/Tonks",
the most important, from a narrative point of view, is hidden behind 
trivial appearances: someone in the castle is an impostor and/or a 
traitor. 
JK Rowling refers to what happened in CoS, when Tonks wants to heal 
Harry's nose. Some lines after, Tonks produces a Patronus, and Harry 
remembers that he has seen Dumbledore send messages like this. Here, 
JK Rowling refers to GoF, chapter 28, `The madness of Mr Crouch'. 
When we reach the end of the fourth book, we are told that most of 
what happens in this chapter is based upon illusion, that there has 
been what the characters have seen and believed, and what have 
happened actually.
In CoS, the DADA teacher was an impostor. In GoF, he was both an 
impostor and a traitor. Shouldn't we consider that in HBP, chapter 
8, the story is about to repeat itself? JK Rowling tells us the 
truth, and misleads us with it, presenting it as if it were a wink 
(a reference to Lockhart's disastrous healing demonstration), or 
occulting it behind a red herring (why is Tonks so different? What 
does her strange Patronus represent?). And when Snape shows himself 
on the top of the Astronomy Tower, we'll remain petrified, just like 
Harry.

10. Is there any significance to the fact that Trelawney is at the 
start of
term feast? Is this only the second time we've seen her at the feast?

Yes, there's an important significance. As JK Rowling writes, 
Trelawney's the one who made the prediction concerning Harry. Harry 
used to consider her as fraud before he knew the Prophecy. Trelawney 
is the other character treated with ambiguity in the novel. Is she 
trustworthy? We'll meet her regularly in the novel (chapters 10, 15, 
20, 25), and each time she'll show a double face. On one hand, she's 
a drunk and jealous woman. On the other one, what she reads in her 
playing cards is rather disturbing, because it happens to announce 
the end of the book. One of her cards, the Lightning- Struck Tower, 
even gives a whole chapter its title

The more I read chapter 8, the more I think it mirrors nearly the 
whole book.

12. Throughout the book, Harry asks about Dumbledore's hand, and he 
is
repeatedly told that he'll learn what happened later. He never does. 
Will
the exact details of what happened to the hand be important later, 
either in what Harry has to do or in understanding what happened on 
the tower?

Another time, it looks like a narrative detail, but it isn't. What 
Hermione tells Harry about Dumbledore's hand foreshadows several 
important revelations involving magic. Hermione says there are 
injuries you can't cure. It's a good definition for what happens 
when a wizard uses a Horcrux. The ring Horcrux harmed Dumbledore's 
hand, and it had the same effect on Voldemort's soul. Is there a 
medicine for that kind of injuries? Is Harry's loving heart the 
medicine? After all, since the first novel, we know there's a strong 
tie between the boy and the Philosopher Stone, which is said to be a 
universal medicine. Will Harry show enough compassion so he'll be 
able to heal Voldemort's soul? In chapter 13, he shows something 
that looks like compassion when he asks Dumbledore why Merope Gaunt 
didn't stay alive for her son. But will Voldemort accept the 
medicine?
Hermione announces also what is going to happen later when she talks 
about "old curses" and "poisons without antidote". The "old curses" 
we find in the book are the one concerning the DADA function (it's 
jinxed since Lord Voldemort's last visit to Hogwarts), the Horcruxes 
and also the "Sectumsempra" spell. As for the poison without 
antidote, we'll find it in the Cave. 

14. I have racked my brains and can't remember any place in the 
books where
it is stated as fact that Dumbledore did not trust Snape and that is 
why he
has never given him the DADA post before. Is this a case of rumor and
gossip becoming fact over time? Why indeed did Dumbledore give or 
not give
Snape the job? Has Snape really wanted it all these years? Did you 
think
about the DADA curse when you heard that Snape had the position? Was 
Harry
correct in detecting the look of triumph on Snape's face? He hates 
him so
much, that every expression must be well known to him, yet his 
hatred may
not make him a very reliable judge of such things.

Snape doesn't look particularly happy to get the job. JK Rowling 
says that he "merely raises a hand in lazy acknowledgement of the 
applause from the Slytherin table", and she mentions "a look of 
triumph", but she adds it's Harry's personal impression. And after 
Slughorn's nomination, we've just seen the boy can make mistakes. So 
what can we think? First, regarding what will happen at the end of 
the book, and supposing Snape is a traitor, we can say that he 
starts showing his ingratitude towards Dumbledore. He seems to 
consider that the job is his due, and he doesn't stand up as a mark 
of deference towards the Headmaster. He remains on his chair, like a 
Prince on his throne. We can compare this reaction with Harry's, 
when Tonks heals his broken nose: he thanks her several times. Snape 
doesn't look very grateful. We can also drive another parallel 
between him and young Voldemort in chapter 17: the boy is described 
as "relaxed", with his hand laying "negligently upon the arm of his 
chair". Young Voldemort is sitting in Slughorn's office as if he 
were the actual master of the place. Snape doesn't even stand up 
when his Headmaster says his name, as if he were more important than 
him. It's like a little act of insubordination, and we know where it 
will lead him. 
But on another hand, there's what we know concerning the DADA class. 
Did Snape take the job because it was so dangerous nobody else could 
do it? In that case, it could be a kind of self-sacrifice. Is it one 
of the reasons why he shouts "don't call me a coward" in chapter 28? 
But in that case, why does JK Rowling say that he has "achieved his 
heart's desire"? Why does she use this key expression? Why should it 
be an achievement, if the job is jinxed? He's he trying to pay for 
what he did when he was a Death Eater? Later, we'll learn that the 
author of the jinx is Voldemort himself. Shall we imagine that the 
Dark Lord has broken the curse, now that his dear Snape is DADA 
teacher? So, is the author telling us that Snape, because he has 
achieved his heart's desire, is truly a traitor? Or does she mean 
that he has been waiting all this time for the moment he would make 
that terrible sacrifice? Another time, we can only ask questions.


15. How do you feel about Harry's savage comment that at least it 
means
Snape will be gone by the end of the year? Did Harry's comment about
keeping his fingers crossed for another death disturb you?

I found Harry was rough, but it didn't disturb me, because it's JK 
Rowling's book, and I don't have to say she's better write it this 
way or another. And I think she has done a great job with 
Harry's "shocking declaration".
What Harry says is an example of what literature calls "tragic 
irony". Harry calls for death to come, because he wants to get rid 
of Snape. He also announces what is going to happen by the end of 
the book. Snape won't be there any more, but the price to pay will 
be Dumbledore's death and Harry's definitive separation from the 
rest of the Wizarding World. Harry's wish will turn against him. The 
same thing happens in several Greek tragedies, for example, 
in "Oedipus King", by Sophocles. The way JK Rowling writes Harry's 
story reminds of classic tragedy.  
Notice also that Harry mentions Quirrell, who was Voldemort's 
servant, he who had the Dark Lord in his head, he who betrayed 
Dumbledore though the Headmaster had chosen him as a protector for 
the Stone. The other interesting thing is Harry's blindness when he 
wishes someone will die. If it is his heart's desire, then it's very 
disturbing for the reader, because it sounds like what Voldemort 
himself would say in the same situation. Moreover, whishing someone 
will die is the first thing a wizard has to do in order to create a 
Horcrux. The frontier between Harry and the Dark Lord, at that 
moment of the story, is very narrow. But it's often the case between 
good and evil. It prefigures the encounter with the Half-Blood 
Prince and the use Harry will make of his book. There are very good 
things in that book, but also terrible ones. There are spells you 
shouldn't try before knowing what they can do. The same way, there 
are wishes you shouldn't make, and you shouldn't call for death to 
come, because sometimes it turns against you. Call it superstition 
if you will, but remember what a Horcrux does to its creator. 
Remember too that Harry pronounces that shocking wish because he is 
furious and full of hatred towards Snape, the man he considers as 
responsible for Sirius's death. It is as if he had even forgotten 
what it is like when somebody dies. He forgot his own disarray when 
death took Sirius. Now, it's more or less "an eye for an eye, and a 
tooth for a tooth". Hatred blinded his heart, just like it did with 
Voldemort. He really needs to learn more about compassion, 
forgiveness, and to separate from his heart what could corrupt it, 
like hatred. But by the end of the book, when he faces Snape just 
after Dumbledore's death, Harry doesn't try to kill him, though he 
hates him
 He also worries about Draco. The path is hard, there is 
much temptation, and sometimes Harry falls. But he always gets up, 
thanks to his ability to love, to feel compassion, and that's all 
the difference between him and Voldemort

17. When Harry tells Ron about the things he overheard Draco saying 
on the
train, we see more doubt on the part of Harry's circle about his 
suspicions
of Draco. Why doesn't Ron believe that Draco is up to anything?

Simply because they are not on the same level. Ron is a good, loyal 
boy. Harry is the Chosen One, and that makes a huge difference.

Well, I'd better stop before it becomes a too long post. Thanks for 
reading it, and thanks again to Sherry for the good job.

Amicalement,

Iris