The GoF Train Scene - and beyond (was:Re: Humanity, Kant, Caricatures, and Draco

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 146817

> >>Alla:
> > You make it sound as if Draco committed some heroic action, which
> > makes me very confused.
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> I was thinking of this scene from Draco's point of view, and I 
> imagine Draco saw himself as being quite heroic, bravely stating 
the 
> truth to Harry, etc., etc.

Alla:

Oh, that very well could be - Draco seeing himself as a Hero, I 
mean. I am just not sure how I as a reader could share Draco's 
dellusions  about him being a hero. It all goes back to the idea 
that IMO sides ( Light and Dark) are drawn very clearly in 
Potterverse. People can change and change sides, but if they think 
that they are right being on Voldemort's side, JKR IMO does not show 
it.

Betsy Hp:
  Actually, it's interesting that he 
> doesn't include Harry in his prediction of doom.  It's Hermione 
and 
> Ron who will die in their battle against Voldemort.  Harry has 
only 
> made a mistake in choosing sides.  Draco must not realize that 
Harry 
> is Voldemort's true target.  

Alla:

So, besides being delusional, Draco is also somewhat ignorant about 
Harry being Voldemort true target ( I am not sure about the extent 
of his ignorance, but that is a possibility of course). I am not 
sure what is so interesting. Draco only threatens Ron and Hermione 
and makes disgusting comment about Cedric.  Nothing especially 
interesting to me except Draco getting his just desserts for this 
scene at the end .


> Betsy Hp:
> Draco knew Harry would have *his* goons with him.  He'd listened 
to 
> part of their conversation, so he knew who was there.  

Alla: 
He SAW that Harry was not alone when he showed up, so he brought 
Crabbe and Goyle with him without knowing who was in Harry's 
compartment. Are you saying that Draco heard their conversation 
before he showed up uninvited in their compartment? It does not 
really matter much to me, since one way or another, Draco had no 
business in Gryffs compartment IMO, but I am curious, I flipped the 
relevant pages, but could not find Draco sitting in the nearby 
compartment. Could you refer me to the quote, please?

Betsy Hp:
And if Draco 
> had meant to throw some hexes, I'd imagine he'd have had his wand 
> drawn.

Alla:

Not necessarily, that is often Draco's pattern - insult first, draw 
the wand later - as in ferret scene. In any event, I was just 
speculating about it, whether Draco meant to throw hexes or not, I 
find his words to be enough of cruel provocation. But yes, I think 
it is a reasonable speculation to make that he wanted a fight.


Betsy Hp:
> As to defiance, I mean that Draco is standing up to Harry's side.  
> And he's sticking to his side despite Dumbledore's speech.  The 
term 
> defiance doesn't make any sort of call on who started what.  It 
just 
> means standing against someone or something.  Which Draco is very 
> openly doing.  I did choose that word because it's more positive 
> than negative, and again, I was coming at the scene from Draco's 
> point of view.  

Alla:

So, "defiance" DOES have positive connotations, correct? If you were 
simply speculating about Draco imagining himself a hero, that I 
understand, as I said above. I just don't buy that Rowling agrees 
with Draco at all on that issue. I would imagine that Voldemort and 
DE also view themselves as defiantly standing to Dumbledore's side. 
IMO of course.

 
> > >>Alla:
> > I think issuing any kind of challenges to Draco was the last 
thing 
> > on Harry's mind before Draco showed up and started provoking him.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> I agree.  Harry, if he had his druthers, would ignore Draco 
> completely.  Draco is the one constantly calling Harry's attention 
> to himself.  Until HBP, that is.

Alla:

Well, of course, Draco would not want Harry paying attention to him 
preparing the assassination of the Headmaster.

JMO,