Chapter Eight discussion, Snape, ESE!Lupin, quite a few other things

[Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)]

No: HPFGUIDX 146874

Carol wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/146527 :

<< Snape, OTOH, was at Hogwarts when the Potters chose their Secret
Keeper. He may have been told by Dumbledore that the Potters intended
to make Black their Secret Keeper--he would readily believe the worst
about Black--but he couldn't have been told by Voldemort or the Death
Eaters. >>

Nitpick: he must have been able to some contact with Death Eaters, or
he couldn't have spied on them for Dumbledore.

<< loved your Monty Python quote but thought a gudgeon was a fish >>

Gudgeon *is* a fish, one who has a big mouth and a reputation for
swallowing anything, and therefore became an ancient slang word for a
very gullible foolish person who'll 'swallow' any nonsensical lie.
Thus Gladys Gudgeon as the name of Lockhart's most loyal fan. Thus
'gudgeon' as my description of Ministry personnel who believed that
Lucius Malfoy was innocent of joining Voldemort's terrorist gang.

Geoff wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/146540 :

<< Within a couple of miles or so or where I live, there is ... 
Worthy Wood  >>

Where is Unworthy Wood?

Sherry summarized Chapter 8 in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/146545 :

<< Tonks tells him to hurry, that they have to jump off the train and
he hurries after her. Tonks leaps off the train, and Harry jumps off
too, staggering a little as he lands. >>

<< 3. Here we see Tonks jump off a moving train. All through the last
book, OOTP, we are shown how clumsy Tonks is. She constantly breaks
things or trips over things. It becomes comic relief throughout that
book. But here we see her casually leaping off a moving train. What
did you think of this? >>

It jumped out at me like an alarm had gone off.

<< We learn later that Tonks has lost her metamorphmagus ability. Do
you think her ability to change her appearance could be part of why
she is clumsy? Is it possible that she isn't very well coordinated
because of her metamorphing? Will she be clumsy again now that she 
has her ability back at the end of HBP? Or is there something more
sinister going on here? Is this really Tonks? >>

Tonks had lost both her Metamorphmagus ability and her clumsiness, and
no character in the story suspected her of being a Polyjuice imposter
despite the warning that the Ministry had sent to every household
advising identity questions because of the risk of Polyjuice
imposters. No characters mentioned imposters between Arthur and
Molly's bit of cuteness and the revelations that Crabbengoyle were
Polyjuiced into girls to guard the door of the Room of Requirement.
Even if HBP!Tonks was not an imposter, some character should have
suspected she was. 

(And my DH mmediately leered at the thought of teen-age boys taking
turns to be Polyjuiced into girls.)

Back to Sherry:

<< Harry remembers that Dawlish is the auror Dumbledore attacked, >>

And has not done anything yet to show me that he got Outstanding on
*six* NEWTs.

<< As Harry and Snape walk up to the castle, Harry is overwhelmed with
feelings of hatred for Snape, so strong that he wonders why Snape
can't feel them. >>

But, as we know by the end of HBP that Snape is a Legilimens, he CAN
feel them. 

<< 8. Ok, I've been dying to ask this question for months. It's come
up once or twice before with no response. Did Snape see that Harry's
face was covered in blood? He did have a lantern with him, and when
they entered the school there was a lot of light. If he did see it,
why didn't he comment or why didn't he realize that Harry had not been
late on purpose, that something must have happened to Harry on the
way? If you believe he didn't see it, why not, how could he not see
it? With all the extra security and all that going on in the wizarding
world, why didn't he ask Harry how his face got bloodied? Were his
snarky comments to Harry on the walk up to the castle just the usual
routine, done to keep up appearances, or does he still seriously hate
him so much? >>

Snape uses the walk to the castle to torture Harry, guided to the most
painful bits by Harry's own thoughts. Even tho', besides being able to
see the blood with his lantern, he knows, from Harry's own thoughts,
that Harry is this time not guilty of what Snape accuses (deliberately
being late on purpose to make a grand entrance). I suppose, in
addition to the usual theories that Snape tortures Harry 1) because he
hates Harry, or 2) to keep up his cover, Snape might be angry at Harry
for hating him about Sirius?

<< that he would rather die than betray his trust and Ron breaks in to
say that it's not saying much, considering NHN is already dead. NHN
gets offended and tells Ron that as usual, he has the sensitivity of a
blunt axe. >>

It seems to me that, throughout HBP, Sir Nick is a little more
thin-skinned that in previous books, and that Ron is a *lot* ruder to
him than in previous books. Sir Nick is, of course, an expert on blunt
axes <g>.

<< 15. How do you feel about Harry's savage comment that at least it
means Snape will be gone by the end of the year? Did Harry's comment
about keeping his fingers crossed for another death disturb you? >>

I reflexively said: "That's JKR doing down the people who say that
Draco proved himself to be evil by saying in CoS that he wished
Hermione would die this time."

<< 17. When Harry tells Ron about the things he overheard Draco saying
on the train, we see more doubt on the part of Harry's circle about
his suspicions of Draco. Why doesn't Ron believe that Draco is up to
anything? >>

It's the old story of the boy who cried 'Wolf!'

Alla wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/146557 :

<< There WAS a lot of light, if Snape did not see it when they were in
the corridor, he had no way of not catching it when they were in Great
Hall. >>

But the students at the tables Harry walked passed didn't notice blood
on his face, and even Ron and Hermione didn't notice it on first glance.

Shaun wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/146641 :

<< that book (Australian First Aid: The Authorized Manual of St John
Ambulance Australia) >>

That title makes it sounds as if Australian First Aid is different
from everyone else's First Aid.

La Gatta Lucianese wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/146653 :

<< Theodore Nott, I suspect, can see thestrals because his father is a
Death Eater, so he has had the opportunity to witness somebody dying,
probably rather nastily. (EEK! Do they off people in front of their
own kids?) >>

JKR said that Theodore Nott's father is an elderly widower. That is,
his wife (presumably the mother of his son) is dead. She may be the
person whose death Theo-boy witnessed. She may have died of some
relatively normal wizarding disease of aging, well-cared for and
properly palliated with anti-pain potions, at St. Mungo's (or at home
with private nurses) and her whole family gathered around her. She may
have died in a sporting accident while her family was in the audience
cheering her on. She may have died of a heart attack in her sleep --
if her son was the first to find her body, would that count as him
seeing her death?

Nuri wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/146655 :

<< how many know the sword? Harry knows it because he's used it, but I
haven't heard anyone else making allusions to it, and though harry's
been in DD's office with other people, we've had no account (as far as
I remember) of another person turning to admire the majestic sword. >>

OoP Chapter 16 : 'And did you kill a Basilisk with that sword in
Dumbledore's office?' demanded Terry Boot. That's what one of the
portraits on the wall told me when I was in there last year . . .'

Pippin wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/146760 :

<< the Order, and Sirius himself in better times, are opposed to
killing >>

What is the canon that Sirius himself (in better times) was opposed to
extra-legal execution? I feel sure that the idea of private revenge
instead of government law enforcement is widespread in the wizarding
community, and that Sirius meant to kill Peter *before* Azkaban. 

PoA Chapter 18: "Peter Pettigrew's dead!" said Harry. "He killed him
twelve years ago!" He pointed at Black, whose face twitched
convulsively. "I meant to," he growled, his yellow teeth bared, "but
little Peter got the better of me... not this time, though!"
[emphasis: "I meant to"]

<< Well, Sirius answered that question for us. It's Voldemort's old
supporters that Peter was afraid of, they're the ones who want him
dead. >>

Ah, back to last week's topic. IIRC it was decided that Voldemort had
kept his spies' identity relatively secret (for obvious security
reasons) and thus DE Snape hadn't known that Peter was the faithless
Secret Keeper, but Bellatrix did know and she was the one that Sirius
heard crying out for revenge on Peter. That leaves me wondering
whether Peter knew that some surviving DEs knew about him, and whether
he realised that some of them would blame him for this debacle and
want revenge on him. (If it had occurred to him that it could be
thought that he had tricked LV into an ambush, perhaps he could have
passed as a live hero, by telling the good guys he had done so on
purpose.) 

Except for ESE!Lupin, I think it more likely that he was hiding from
them testifying against him as a plea-bargain (like Karkaroff) than
from them killing him. As for why he didn't come out of hiding, all
the trouble of selling the Ministry on a tale that 'Sirius Black
didn't kill me, he Transfigured me into a rat with amnesia and it took
years for me to get over it' would gain him only the need to get a job
to pay for food and housing that he got for free as a pet rat.

But, y'know, it is my theory that LV didn't go to Godric's Hollow
alone. He brought Pettigrew with him -- he must have done, if
Pettigrew retrieved and hid LV's wand and robes for future use. (I
know you think that ESE!Lupin retrieved the wand and robes, and the
alleged JKR quote says 'Wormtail' hid them, but you aren't arguing
that LV *didn't* bring Pettigrew to Godric's Hollow).

It made perfect sense to me that LV would bring Pettigrew, make
Pettigrew walk right in front of him, in case it was a trap, until I
found out that LV really is a Legilimens, who would know from Peter's
mind that it was not a trap; that leaves revelling in Peter's fear and
guilt as sole motive for bringing him. 

I think he also brought Snape and Lucius with him (because of that
dream Harry had in PS/SS). If LV brought both Pettigrew and Snape,
then Snape would have known that Pettigrew was the traitor, thus
returning him to the place of siccing the Dementors on a man, Sirius,
whom he knew to be innocent. 

Pippin continued in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/146764 :

<< Peter took advantage of the situation and escaped in rat form,
leaving his amputated finger and bloodied robes behind him. >>

How did Peter know to cut off his finger just before his enemies shot
at him?