Patronus issues

[Wink45zes at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 146887

bboyminn:

>> First we know that the messenger aspect of a Patronus is 
something conceived and refined by Dumbledore. No one else has 
figured this out. So, I really don't see any inconsistency; 
either that or I don't understand your comment. <<

Wink:
Well, Harry (and the readers of the books) have seen Dumbledore 
send messages via the Patronus, and now in HBP we see Tonks 
doing it.  But where in the 6 published books is it shown or 
said that this was something conceived and refined by Dumbledore?  
Book, chapter, and or quote, please.  Or do you know this only 
because JKR said so in an interview or on her web site?  

Not everyone who reads the books has access to the Internet, or 
perhaps they are like me, with limited time.  I've read the 
books, once. I know there have been interviews, but I have not 
read any of them, though I have heard about some of them on group 
list such as this.  I also understand that she has frequently 
contradicted her own interviews and her books in some of those 
interviews, (Hermione is the youngest, no she's the oldest of the 
trio, is one example I know of), leading me to have my doubts how 
useful or reliable those interviews are.  And at the least, 
everything that needs to be understood should be available in the 
main body of work.  I am working with a young lady who lives in a 
severely financially challenged situation.  She has read a couple 
of the books which she got from the school library.  The school as 
a few Internet connected computers to serve the whole school, and 
the public library has some also, but getting there costs money.  
Unless it is clear in the books, there is no way that I see for 
this child to understand that this messenger-Patronus is something 
developed by Dumbledore and used only by the Order.  Just because 
we do not see any one outside the Order of the Phoenix using it 
does not mean they can't.  If it is important to JKR to establish 
that limit, than it should have been made clear in the books. 

bboyminn:

>> The opposite of 'real-time' is not time travel. . ~SNIP rest of 
paragraph.#1   List-Elves, please bear with me - there is a method 
in this madness.

bboyminn continued: Apparation, Portkey, and probably Floo travel 
are not real-time. ~SNIP rest of paragraph #2

bboyminn continued: If Patronus travel in real-time and a Stag 
can travel at 10 mph, ~SNIP rest of paragraph #3

bboyminn continued: 
The whole point I was making is that we can't assume Patronus is 
the standard, common, or preferred method of communication for the 
Order. I speculated that even under the best of circumstances, 
Patronus Messenger was reserved for urgent and critical 
communcation. Routine communication would use routine methods. <<


Wink:
Yes, I must say this is VERY confusing.  You spent three paragraphs 
talking about various means of traveling through space using 
different amounts of time and how time travel is different (I 
agree), but then point out that your whole point is really just 
that this is a mode of communications reserved for urgent or 
critical communication.  Don't see the connection myself, but 
I'll let that slid. I'm content with believing that Patronuses can 
go very fast when speed is needed. 

As for under what circumstances or how often the message-Patronus 
is actually used, I do think we are far too limited by the "Harry-
Filter" to make even a very rough guess.  Harry does not, or seems 
not to see the Auror guards or the members of the Order going 
about the course of their duties. Just because Harry does not see 
any of them using the message-Patronus when "reporting in" during 
their shift of duty does not mean they don't.  When we see Tonks 
use this charm, it is not a a big emergency.  It is just a 
situation where any modern Muggle, finding the automatic gate 
malfunctioning, would grab their cell phone and call up to the 
house for some assistance. Based on this, and the fact that there 
are several Aurors stationed throughout the area, I think it 
reasonable to think they might use the message-Patronus on a 
fairly regular basis.  The strengths you have pointed out would 
definitely be useful for people working a security detail. 

In the books we have seen the actual speed which these Patronuses 
have actually moved, (at least for short distances), visible to 
even wizards such as Harry who have not been taught how to do it. 
Anyone can imagine that these messenger-Patronuses can move at 
whatever speed they wish, it is only limited by their imagination, 
and I suppose, by the needs of their personal fanfiction. But I 
am trying to understand what is happening within the books as 
written by JKR. (without needing to refer to other sources of 
information). I am not sure that I would consider the message sent 
by Tonks to be either critical nor urgent.  Just necessary.  
Apparently there is no bell or knocker at the chained gates, and 
no one stationed there to guard them or to admit after hours 
visitors.  But hold that thought, for below I discuss a situation 
that is urgent and critical and the messenger-Patronus is NOT 
used, and why it wasn't. 

> bboyminn:
> 
> I suspect that in the instance of Tonks trying to contact
> Hagrid or Dumbledore summoning Hagrid to the location of the
> Barty Sr attack, there were no messages. The mere presents of
>  a recognisable Patronus would have cause people to come and 
> investigate. ...
> 
> Wink:
> I daresay that simply pointing in a direction is inadequate 
> for me. I sure don't have an accurate compass in my head, and
> I've yet to see any indication  of that talent among wizards.  
> ...edited...

bboyminn:

>> You seem to be taking my statements of ASPECTS of Patronus
communication as the SINGLE definitive statement of method.  SNIP <<

Wink:
I'm sorry you think that.  It is an assumption.  Yes, I wrote 
referring to one of the possible aspects of Patronus communication 
methodology that you put forward.  That does NOT mean I saw it as 
THE SINGLE or DEFINITIVE aspect.  It was just one that I saw a 
weaknesses in, a weakness I thought it important to explore.  I 
commented on that, without adding an "Okay, I can see that" to any 
of other possible aspects you wrote about. Quite simply I did not 
think an "I see, I agree that's possible" would pass the List-Elves 
snippers. One liners of agreement are frowned upon according to the 
posting rules. Please do not jump to assumptions just because there 
is a paragraph or ten that I do not reply to. It may be that I 
actually agree and have nothing to add.  Excuse me for exploring 
the potential weakness in any or all of suggested possible methods 
or theories. I'm afraid I will continue to do so. 

bboyminn:
>> I gave those two example of situation in which a verbal message 
would not be necessary. Hagrid seeing Dumbledore's Patronus would 
have known that Dumbledore would never send it unless there was 
trouble, so THERE IS TROUBLE, no explanation needed. In the case 
of Tonk, she may have, but didn't necessarily have to send a 
verbal message that was intercepted by Snape. She may have simply 
sent her recognisable Partonus to that Great Hall assuming that is 
where Hagrid was, Snape saw it and came to investigate. <<

Wink:
Yes, in the case of Dumbledore wanting Hagrid's help in the forest, 
it is quite possible that the simple appearance and pointing in a 
direction would be all that is necessary.  If it is also used by 
the security details in and around the school and Hogsmeade, the 
simple appearance of a calm or a distressed looking Patronus would 
indeed be all that was needed.  However, in the case of Tonks' 
message it is clear that she did not simply send a recognizable 
Patronus expecting anyone who saw it to come investigate.

It is likely known to the staff of Hogwarts that Tonks is 
officially assigned to Hogsmeade, and not to the school.  Given 
that we know that any wizard/witch can at least see the Patronus, 
anyone in the Great Hall looking in the right direction would have 
seen Tonks' Patronus. Even if only a few know that the appearance 
of a Patronus means to "come investigate," why is it that on the 
day when the students are arriving, and the security guards would 
have a lot to do, and security is a priority, why would only one 
teacher come strolling down to the gate?  I would think, on this 
day, with all the security concerns, and a student missing, this 
simple message would have brought several staff members rushing to 
the gate, ready to Apparate into Hogsmeade, anticipating real 
trouble.  But that is not what happened.   

Actually I believe we are shown that a real message was in fact 
sent. Tonks told Harry:  "Yes, I'm sending word to the castle that 
I've got you or they'll worry."  Clearly the simple appearance of 
her Patronus did NOT mean "THERE IS TROUBLE," nor "COME HERE," 
or "come investigate what this is all about."  The Patronus carried 
a specific message that said at the very least that Harry was with 
her.  Perhaps she let Hagrid (and anyone else) assume that she was 
outside the gate, or perhaps she added a request that Hagrid come 
to the gate to let Harry in. We don't know.  Personally I think the 
message was something in the order of: "I've got Harry and he will 
need to be let through the locked gate."  

I also note that after Tonks sent the message-Patronus, they had a 
long walk from Hogsmeade Station up to the school. The length of 
this walk is emphasized, but even after this long walk they still 
had to wait at the gate for Snape to stroll down to them.  Doesn't 
sound like he was in a big hurry to see what the trouble was.  Nor 
did he seem to be expecting to rush off into Hogsmeade, which is 
where Tonks was officially assigned.  

You suggest that Snape did not intercept the message but simply saw 
the Patronus and came to investigate.  Except that Snape actually 
says "I took it instead." Clearly, he did not just see a Patronus 
and decided to go.  He TOOK it.  

The Patronus and whatever message it carried or implied never got 
to Hagrid, it's intended recipient.  We never see Hagrid hurrying 
down to the gate, why would he, he never got the message. Snape 
stopped the message from getting to Hagrid.  And IF the appearance 
of a Patronus means simply "come-trouble" why did none of the other 
staff members go see what Tonks wanted, and why did it take so long 
for Snape to get to the gate?  This implies that there is in fact a 
more detailed message involved than just understanding that the 
appearance of a Patronus means 'come and investigate.'  I would 
think that a large Patronus appearing at the staff table in the 
Great Hall at the Start of Term feast would have been seen by many 
of the staff, if perhaps not all.  Clearly the reason only Snape 
responded, and waited until he saw them appear at the gate, is that
there was a more detailed message and only Snape knew what it was, 
and he knew there was no need to go rushing off into a cool night.  
I can just see it in my mind's eye.  Snape took the message, with 
other teachers watching him.  He reaches for his wine goblet, 
raising it to his lips to hide the smirk they now carried.  Then, 
without a word, he calmly walked out of the Great Hall. The other 
teachers relaxed and returned to their interrupted conversations. 


bboyminn:
>> Everyone was so freaked out at the idea that Snape intercepted 
a message meant for Hagrid, I thought I would simply point out that 
we don't know that there actually was a verbal message. Snape may 
have simply seen the Patronus and that is all he need. <<

Wink:
Whoa!  I don't see "everyone" getting "so freaked out" at all!  I 
know that I and perhaps a few others find Snape's interception of 
this message, verbal or otherwise, to be a detail worthy of 
interest.  It is just the kind of little detail that is often seen 
in an early chapter of the books and then reappears as a major part 
of events later.  I'm sorry that you see someONE's wish to further
 explore and define this detail is "everyone [being] so freaked 
out. . . ."   And I think in my above examination of this detail I 
have shown that there had to have been a more complicated and 
explicit message than what could have been understood by simply 
seeing the Patronus.  

bboyminn:
>> Again, my point is that we are making assumptions not in 
evidence. We know Tonks sent a Patronus, but we don't know that 
that Patronus contained a verbal message. Tonk may have simply 
said (mentally/nonverbally) when creating the Patronus 'go to the 
Great Hall and alert Hagrid'. That is an instruction for action, 
not a verbal message. If she had framed it as 'find Hagrid where 
ever he is and tell him 'Harry is waiting at the front gate''. 
Then the Patronus would have acted differently. I'm not saying 
that's what she did, I'm saying that since we don't know, we can't 
make assumptions about the presences and nature of both the 
instruction and the potential message. <<


Wink:
Well, someone may be making assumptions, but I am working hard at 
not doing so.  We do know that the message contained specific 
details.  We don't know if the message is delivered orally, in 
written form, telepathically, or is tapped out in a magical Morse 
Code. Because we are not given any hint as to whether it is verbal, 
written, whatever, I doubt if the exact method of delivering the 
message is important, but I do think that it is enough to 
understand that one is delivered. 

We Don't know how the Charm is performed.  However, we are given 
the little detail that a message intended for a specific person, 
went to a place that person was expected to be; delivered its 
message (to someone else), and then vanished. It never got to the 
person it was intended for.  We can all play with the mental 
exercise of "It could be this or it could be that" but I'm not 
sure how helpful that is in understanding what JKR has actually 
given us.  Tonks did not need the headmaster, nor the nurse, or 
the DADA teacher.  She did need someone to come unlock the chain 
on the gate. So she sent a message to Hagrid, the Keeper of the 
Keys. (Well, that little detail only took six books to make a 
reappearance!)  If she could have chosen to send the Patronus as 
person-to person, I think she would have done so.  That the 
Patronus did not go directly to Hagrid indicates to me that a 
person-to-person-regardless of location - is not an option.  
Wizards and Witches do not share the ability of owls to 'find' 
people, and thus cannot give that to their Patronus. So they are 
limited to sending a message Patronus to a specific location.  
When possible, even the owls are often given the assist of 
specific locations such as "the cupboard under the stairs, number 
4 Privet Drive," 

My point is that we should pay more attention to what we are shown 
to have happened in the book than to what we imagine could have 
happened. In this case we see the message miss the intended person 
because it actually went to a place where that person had not yet 
arrived. No assumptions necessary.  

bboyminn:

>> And elsewhere in my post I gave a more common illustration of a
Patronus carrying a verbal message in the voice of the sender. The
limitation I set was that the Patronus couldn't engage in dialog; 
it is like a recording, it simply replays the message it was given. 
It also does not take a response. All speculation on my part, but
speculation toward a workable description of the likely nature of 
the Patronus; ...the likely nature of a /workable/ Patronus. <<

Wink:
Well, that, at least, is one thing we agree on.  The messenger-
Patronus is a one way mode of communication. I send mine and get 
yours in return.  Method of communicating the ideas optional per 
each readers imagination as of yet. 

bboyminn:
>> We know the Order uses Patronus, but we also know, or at least, 
it seems, that they do not use the routinely. I'm speculating on 
workable limitation that would put the use of the Patronus in a 
workable context. <<

Wink:
We may know that members of the Order use the message-Patronus, 
but again, do we know from the books that this is in fact limited 
only to the Order?  Our knowledge is limited by the "Harry filter" 
after all.  I do think that this would be a handy tool for all the 
Aurors who are guarding Hogsmeade and Hogwarts to use to report to 
each other and to Dumbledore. 

bboyminn:

>> I think perhaps were are all over thinking the Messenger 
Patronus. I would assume that Dumbledore discovered that if he 
simply made his Patronus appear at a particular location, say the 
Order Headquarters, the people there would take that as a sign 
that Dumbledore was in trouble. Next it occurred to him that he 
could get the Patronus to relay a short verbal message. In a 
sense, it could act like a recording device, and play back his 
words to the intended receiver of the message. I don't see this as 
a complete re-invention of the Patronus. He simply realized an 
aspect of the Patronus that no one else had ever realized before. <<

Wink:
Whether it is a new invention, a complete reinvention or an 
adaptation of an old invention is really not the point I was 
struggling with.  At first I could not connect what was known 
about Patronuses from book three to what is now known.  And now 
what I want to know is exactly what chapter, page, paragraph, 
lines in the books tells you that Dumbledore worked out this way 
of using a Patronus and that he has taught it only to the members 
of the Order of the Phoenix.  I must have missed it, because for 
all I know this is a skill taught in some postgraduate studies, or 
perhaps in the introductory training for the Ministry of Magic.  

bboyminn:
>> The central theme of everything I've said is that we are making
extreme assumption based on ...well ...assumptions. Everyone is up 
in arms because Snape intercepted a message from Tonks Patronus 
which had an intended recipient of Hagrid. <<

Wink:
I do wonder why you as so determined to skim past the facts that 
JKR does give us? And why the apparent need to insult those who 
want to explore those details?  I really don't see anyone "up in 
arms" or "so freaked out" that Snape intercepted the message.  
Some group members have explored why Snape would do that, and why 
he treated Harry the way he did.  Snape does not often (if ever?) 
miss an opportunity to ridicule Harry, and discussing this 
conflict is perfectly reasonable. For myself, I just want to be 
clear on the ins-and-outs of all the different ways we have been 
shown a Patronus can be used, the strengths and weakness which JKR 
has decided to reveal to us, and what the implications of those 
revelations could be. I think it is an interesting detail, but I'm 
certainly not "so freaked out" nor am I "up in arms" about it. 

bboyminn:
>> Well, first you are assuming there WAS a verbal message, 

Wink:
First, I did NOT assume any such thing.  I said it could have been 
verbal or it could have been written.  For all I know it could be 
a tap danced Morse Code. I did note that we have seen one instance 
where a magical secret was revealed by the handwritten word.  But 
Honestly, I don't think this is the important point.  In this we 
can feel free to use our imaginations. 

bboyminn continues:
>> next you are assuming that Snape heard it. Neither of which is 
in evidence. Snape became aware of Tonks Patronus and came to 
investigate, that much speculation we can say with reasonable 
sureness, but beyond that is unfounded speculation. <<

Wink:
I did NOT assume that Snape heard the message.  Snape said that he 
took the message in the book (EVIDENCE!): From HBP, chapter 8, 
Snape Victorious, page 160 American Edition: 
 "I meant Hagrid to get the message," said Tonks, frowning. 
 "Hagrid was late for the start-of-term feast, just like Potter 
here, so I took it instead.  And incidentally," said Snape, 
standing back to allow Harry to pass him, "I was interested to see 
your new Patronus."

Snape TOOK the message INSTEAD.  He did not just see it as it 
passed by on the way to Hagrid.  The message was stopped by Snape. 
 Hagrid never got it.  Snape took the message and understood what 
it meant, however the ideas involved were communicated.  He knew 
there was no need to summon additional help, he didn't go rushing 
to the gate, he didn't arrive at the gate with his wand at the 
ready, expecting trouble.  But, of course, feel free to continue 
speculating that Snape just saw the Patronus and went, and that 
Hagrid got the message and just ignored it, leaving his young 
friend Harry for nasty old Snape to deal with.  We are told that 
Hagrid was only a little late, and Harry and Tonks had that long 
walk across Hogsmeade and up to the gates, and I do think there is 
a good possibility that if Snape had not taken the message" 
instead," then even a slightly late Hagrid could have been waiting 
at the gate for Harry and Tonks to arrive. But Snape, being who he 
is, could not keep his abnormally large nose out of other people's 
business.


bboyminn continues:
>> On a last note, I seems more than reasonable that the Trio will 
learn the Patronus Messenger charm in the next book. We knew about
Apparation long before we had the details from Harry's point of 
view. We have known about Patronus Messengers for several books, 
though mostly through implication. Now in the last book, we will 
finally get the details. <<

Wink:
It is of course possible that the Trio will learn this charm in 
the last book.  It is also possible that when Harry returns to 
number 12 Grimauld Place searching for the locket that he will 
instead find the mate to the small mirror that Sirius gave him.  
The use of those mirrors seems to me to be a more reliable and 
secure method of communicating between two people.  As you point 
out, it is common in JKR's books for us to be given hints of 
things to play out in greater detail much later. 

In fact, I tend to think we've seen almost all that we will of 
these message-Patronuses.  In chapter 8, I think we were 
deliberately shown a couple of problems, or limitations, with this 
charm.  We were shown that the message-Patronus goes to a known 
place, and not to a person of unknown location.  And we were shown 
that these message-Patronuses can be intercepted.  (And it is not 
at all clear from the books just who knows and doesn't know how to 
use/intercept this Charm.)  Why were we shown all of this?

Well, I can think of one situation where a message-Patronus without 
these flaws or limitations would have been very handy: When 
Dumbledore and Harry return from the cave.  Clearly, Dumbledore 
knew he needed the help that only Severus Snape could give him.  
But he didn't sent a message-Patronus to Snape, or even to anyone 
at Hogwarts, when they first emerged from the cave. While distance 
is not a problem, it may be that Snape could not Apparate to what 
is to him an unknown place along the seacoast. It seems that you 
must have at least some knowledge about your destination in order 
to successfully Apparate. 

So Harry and Dumbledore return to Hogsmeade, landing near the Three 
Broomsticks. Dumbledore tells Harry it is Snape that he needs, but 
he does not send a message-Patronus.  Why not? Obviously it is not 
that the security enchantments on the walls of Hogwarts can stop 
one, as Tonks has been seen to send one from outside the walls. So, 
why not send one?  I think it important to note as well that it is 
a rather depressed Tonks that we see using the message-Patronus.  
That hints that this Patronus charm is not dependent upon holding a 
strong happy memory as does the "Expecto Patroronum" charm.  And 
even if a happy memory is required, if a depressed Tonks can manage 
it, surely Dumbledore, who has long savored the good in all things 
can manage it, even after drinking that depressive potion.  So 
again, why does he not send a message-Patronus to Snape?  

I suggest it is because he cannot be sure that the message will get 
to Snape and only Snape.  It is late at night, Snape should be in 
his office or his bed.  But he could also be out patrolling the 
corridors, or somewhere in Slytherin House dealing with a sick 
student.  Or waiting outside Dumbledore's office.  

Dumbledore cannot be absolutely sure exactly where Snape is, and 
the message-Patronus cannot 'find' a person, just a location.  All 
of the staff have the same reasons to be someplace other than their 
offices/beds. Dumbledore himself increased the protections for that 
night.  No one at the school knows where Dumbledore is, so just 
seeing his Patronus is no help.  Even a nudge in the general 
direction is not very informative, and besides which, Dumbledore is 
still on the move.  And these problems are compounded by the sight 
of the Dark Mark in the sky.  If the Death Eaters have invaded the 
school, it is quite possible that one or more are seeking out Snape. 
 It would not help anyone for one of them to see Dumbledore's 
Patronus inside Snape's office, especially before Dumbledore is 
back in the castle. Until/unless it is stated in the books that 
only the Order of the Phoenix members know this charm, I think it 
safer to think of it as more generally known.  In addition, now 
there is the risk that a Death Eater would see a staff member 
intercepting his Patronus.  None of them are above using torture 
to get information.  

Dumbledore does seem to expect Snape to be in his bed.  Once on the 
tower he tells Harry to "go and wake Severus."  But can he be sure 
Severus Snape is still there?  I would say no, he can't be sure.  
He can't know exactly where Snape is now, especially if he has 
responded to the invasion.  I think that by the time Dumbledore 
reaches the Tower he knows that he cannot be sure exactly where any 
of the staff or guards are.  He cannot send a message and have any 
hope of it reaching Snape. He sends Harry, and then events intrude. 

I think JKR invented the message-Patronus to serve the story as 
needed in GOF and OotP.  We get a better view of it in action here 
in chapter 8, HBP.  At the same time she has inserted hints as to 
the limitations of this charm, only to quickly sweep past them with 
some classic 'Snape is nasty to Harry' stuff.  These limits to the 
messenger-Patronus were necessary for chapter 27 to work. 
 It simply could not be that easy for Dumbledore to reach Snape 
when he really needed his help. For her story to play out, Snape 
could not be allowed to reach Dumbledore on the tower until after 
Draco and the Death Eaters.  I applaud how JKR managed this.  It 
is not that Dumbledore forgot about this (his?) very useful charm, 
but that there were real reasons he could not safely use it. 

Wink