VA/H=Mx13+RP? Snape's Culpability?

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 147244

> Pippin:
> I think something important is getting lost here. VWI was a very
> dirty war. *Both* sides were using Unforgivable Curses. Yes, the
> Ministry's policy was only to use them on suspects, but they're
> not exactly particular about who they suspect.
> 
> Snape the DE spy knew if he was caught, or even suspected,
> he might be killed out of hand or tortured for information. He 
> would know innocent people, only suspected of being DE's,  
> who had been condemned, just as Harry does. Voldemort's cause 
> was no doubt more evil, but it would have been hard to tell with 
> both sides committing atrocities.

Jen: The original comparison was made between Voldemort & 
Dumbledore: If Snape overheard a similar prophecy regarding 
Dumbledore and worked for him instead, he would hasten to tell him 
the information. My argument was it's not the giving of the 
information that makes Snape culpable, it's the choice of who to 
give it to. 

Voldemort & the MOM during the first war would be a different 
comparison and I mostly agree with your analysis above.

Pippin:
> DDM!Snape fan though I am, I don't think DE Snape was unaware that
> enemies of the Dark Lord, "those who have thrice defied him"
> were going to be killed. Of course they would, that's what
> happens in war. If they don't want to be killed, let them stop
> being enemies. 
> 
> According to Dumbledore, something changed
> when Snape discovered that the enemies Voldemort was going to
> attack as a result of his information were people that he knew.
> Dumbledore says he himself didn't care very much if
> "numbers of nameless and faceless people and
> creatures were slaughtered in the vague future, if in the here
> and now" someone he knew was "alive, well and happy."

Jen: Here's the rub though, as you mentioned above Snape would have 
seen the ravages of war after being a DE for even a couple of years. 
Why were those moments not personal, not enough to make him see the 
light about how far Voldemort was willing to go?  Did he not see 
anyone he knew personally die or be tortured in front of him? That's 
hard to imagine. Instead, a hated foe was the one who turned him 
round. Or his wife. LOLLIPOPS, life debt--what makes the Potters 
personal besides the elusive 'someone he knew'?

Possibly Voldemort's decision to act on the prophecy and kill a baby 
WAS the first time Snape had the horrific dawning realization of who 
Voldemort really was. Sort of like Draco's realization his once 
superior family was actually expendable to Voldemort.

Magpie:
> Yes. It gets back to the idea of everyone really not being on the
> same side with the same pov. Voldemort is not the evil guy from 
> the DE's pov--he's the guy who's purging the world of filth. Even
> if he's doing things that are dark, if you are a DE you are on
> board with this, you see the reward for these things as being 
> worth it for whatever reason you do. If someone had a prophecy
> that predicted Voldeort I've no doubt plenty of people would think
> it might be a good idea to take Tom Riddle out, baby or not.

Jen: Yes, the actions & motivations may look the same, DE's can 
believe they are doing the right thing serving Voldemort and perhaps 
even tell themselves it's for the good of the community. JKR has 
certainly introduced a level of moral relativity into her universe. 
I know you aren't arguing Voldemort and the DE's aren't evil, just 
that they have convinced themselves their deeds are righteous and 
necessary (some have, some just seem to enjoy hurting others). The 
introduction of the soul in Potterverse ain't for nothing though, 
evil people can convince themselves they are serving justice but the 
soul can tell the difference.

Magpie:
> This has nothing to do with Snape being less culpable--the
> consequence of Voldemort targetting Harry is obviously a
> forseeable consequence of what he Snape did. I don't think Snape
> was *confused* by finding out how Voldemort interpreted it.
> Dismayed, but he surely realized that this was a logical
> interpretation of the prophecy Snape gave him--that's why he took
> steps to undo it. What makes Snape less culpable is the fact that
> he took action to fix what he had done before. If that means 
> nothing, what would be the point in people doing the right thing? 

Jen: YES. We've discussed everyday evil on the list but I truly 
believe small steps in the right direction are worth something in 
JKR's world. That's why I can't view ambiguous characters like 
Draco, Slughorn, & hopefully Snape as being evil. I just keep 
thinking of her comment that James was brave the night Voldemort 
attacked, but the caliber of Lily's bravery was slightly higher 
because she had a true choice to make in that situation. Not 
everyone can be like Harry or Lily, good from the beginning and 
never being tempted from that path. Some of the characters get the 
even more difficult task of being tempted down the dark path, 
*questioning* the path they're on (crucial), and trying to climb the 
rocky mountain to redemption and forgiveness. 

Jen R.