Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lord Voldemort's Six Horcruxes? Are Dumbledore’s Opinions Wrong? (LVs SHADOW

[elfundeb]

No: HPFGUIDX 147289

 Once again, replying to an old post --

Carol:
I agree that LV had not yet made Nagini into a Horcrux when he had the
DADA interview. But are you sure that he was actually recruiting
followers other than his few old friends at that point? Maybe he still
had some traveling to do--and some Horcruxes to make. And he could
have made Nagini a Horcrux at any time between that interview and
Godric's Hollow. He could easily have had the fifth (Ravenclaw)
Horcrux as well, with Nagini as the sixth. (I think it's that small
point on which DD is wrong; he thinks that Nagini was made into a
Horcrux after Voldemort's body was restored, but I thinkit had to be
sooner.)

You say that he wasn't snakelike when he returned from his travels,
but you're assuming that his travels were over when he had the DADA
interview. But do we know when that interview occurred? How long or
short a time passed between that interview and the beginning of VW1?
Even if that interview (when his features were blurred and he had
created at least four Horcruxes) occurred immediately before VW1
began, he still had eleven years to go before Godric's Hollow--plenty
of time for more murders and more Horcruxes.

I think he must have been snakelike (as the result of Nagini as
Horcrux) before Godric's Hollow for two reasons. First, the DEs in the
graveyard scene don't react at all to his appearance. This is
Voldemort restored, Voldemort as they knew him. And second, the face
that appears out of Quirrell's head in SS/PS is snakelike. At that
point, Quirrell is drinking unicorn blood to sustain his master, but
snake venom only comes into the picture when its used to create his
fetal body and provide "milk" for baby!mort.

As I said in an earlier thread, she must already have been a Horcrux
when Pettigrew found him if he could use her venom to restore
Voldemort's body. And Voldie was in no shape to create a Horcrux
himself between his vaporization and PP's finding him in Albania
(including the interval in Quirrell's head). He didn't even have a
wand, and a wand is required to create a Horcrux. So, IMO, it had to
have happened before Godric's Hollow.

Carol, not sure that she's arguing clearly here, but sure that Nagini
was a Horcrux *before* Godric's Hollow

Debbie:
I think your surmise is entirely possible (as is Ceridwen's suggestion that
his inner snake comes to the fore as he rips away increasing portions of his
humanity in the creation of the horcruxes).  But I have some alternatives .
. . .

I still have my doubts as to why Nagini would be a Horcrux at all.
Dumbledore's own explanation doesn't add up, for one thing.  Dumbledore's
suggestion that Nagini is a Horcrux is clearly only a surmise.  He has no
real evidence to support it except for his comment that Voldemort has an
unusual degree of control over her, even for a Parselmouth.  Also,
Dumbledore says that Voldemort no longer feels those parts of himself that
he has detached through the making of horcruxes, and that he didn't notice
the death of the diary horcrux.  So Voldemort's control over (and fondness
for) Nagini is not explained by her being a horcrux.  Nor would it be
explained by possession (except for the one incident at the DoM), as none of
the animals Voldemort possessed in Albania lived for very long.

We know that UglyBaby!Voldemort drank Nagini's venom for its life-sustaining
or life-restoring qualities.
Snakes, like phoenixes and other creatures, are symbols of resurrection and
immortality.  (The basis for the symbolism is  the snake's shedding of its
skin.)  Unlike phoenixes, however, due to the serpent's association with the
fall from grace in the Garden of Eden, there is a duality to the imagery of
the snake.

 I actually wonder if Voldemort hadn't been drinking Nagini's venom long
before Godric's Hollow.  Voldemort implies in the graveyard that he employed
multiple means to make himself immortal:  "You know my goal -- to conquer
death.  And now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my
experiments had worked . . . for I had not been killed, though the curse
should have done it."

In light of the snake's immortality symbolism, Nagini's venom would seem to
be a good candidate for an immortality experiment -- perhaps one that is
entirely different from the creation of a Horcrux.  Indeed, I did not get
the sense in the first chapter of GoF that Pettigrew had conveniently nabbed
a local snake to steal some venom.  Nagini *already* seemed to have an
affinity for Voldemort.

If Voldemort had already used Nagini (or her venom) for earlier immortality
experiments, this would explain Voldemort's increasingly snakelike
appearance, and why he would take on that appearance rather than becoming
increasingly Orc-like as he shredded his soul to bits.  It explains their
apparent affinity for one another in GoF while simultaneously acknowledging
that Voldemort did not possess Nagini before attacking Arthur in OOP.

It's also possible (since we know nothing about how Horcruxes are made) that
Nagini's venom was used as an ingredient in the creation of his Horcruxes
and therein lies the connection.

Debbie
off to untangle the Black family tree


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