Being Good and Evil /Hermione , Marietta etc/ DD trust in Snape LONG

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 154778

> Alla wrote:
>> > As Snape would say if I look at Snape and Peter's actions, "I
see
> > no difference", NONE.
> >
> > If I look further, then YES of course I see difference, but I
ALSO
> > see plenty of difference between what Hermione did and what
Umrbidge
> > did.
>
> Carol responds:
> Forgetting Hermione for the moment, I don't understand this
> comparison. <HUGE SNIP> It would clarify your argument if you'd
specify the differences you
> see. Thanks.


Alla:

Sorry, I thought I was clear enough this time. :) Let me try again.

The argument goes like this. First for the sake of this argument
only I accept that Snape betrayal of Voldemort was genuine, he
repented, etc,etc.

Now, back to the ACTION only. The argument was made that what
Hermione did to Marietta was bad no matter what, that ACTION in
itself was bad, just as what Umbridge did to Harry was bad in itself
no matter what the reason.

I disagreed saying that for me it is necessary to look beyond the
action very often, to look at WHY the action happened.

I mean sure some actions to me are bad no matter what, but this one 
to me can be either good or bad depending on the reasons and 
motivations  behind it.

So, to illustrate the idea that I very often look at the AIM
behind the action, I brought up Snape and Peter.

Wouldn't you agree that IF we do not look at the reasons behind
their betrayal, betrayal in itself is BAD. I mean, as I told someone
yesterday if I am not mistaken in Dante "Divine comedy" the last and
worst circle of hell is occupied by traitors.
I mean, if we forget about what views the people on both sides
held, Snape betrayed his friends and comrades AND his boss to other
side, who holds diametrally opposed views, who will put all of them
to Azkaban, with or without trial.

Now I AGREE with all the reasons you gave that if Snape's betrayal
is genuine, it is the RIGHT thing to do, BUT to find that out I need
to look at WHY he did it. Makes sense?

Just as with what Hermione did, I look at the WHY and while I do not
find her strategy perfect, I find it perfectly understandable.


> > Alla:
> >
> > Just wanted to briefly comment that I have not noticed that
being
> > fifteen diminishes the seriousness of other characters actions
in
> > Potterverse.

Irene:
> Oh, of course not. Never, ever. Unless your name is James. ;-))))
>
> I don't care to count how many times the argument "We can't define
a
> man's whole life by his one moment of stupidity when he was 15"
came up.
> But it is a popular one, I think you would agree.
>
> And yet people are perfectly happy to define Marietta's life by
this one
> moment.

Alla:

I am trying very hard to find where I said that Marietta's LIFE
should be defined by this one moment and fail. Help me?

Quite the contrary, in the part that you snipped I said that I would
not call Marietta a "terrible person" because of this one action,
but I refuse to diminish the seriousness of this ACTION just BECAUSE
she is fifteen.

I think it is a little bit different from how you stated my argument.

I am also not sure what relevance James has to this discussion, who
I don't remeber betrayed anyone.


> >Magpie:
>
> > snip>
>
> > But they're NOT committed to a cause, they're just joining a
study group.
> <snip>

Alla:

JUST a study group? It is at the very least a study group who
studying something that ministry appointed official purposefully
refuses to teach them, so IMO being in study group makes them in
opposition to this ministry official and by extension to the
Ministry.

Sorry, sounds as much much more than a study group to me.

> Rebecca:
>
> For a study group, it sure has a lot of importance, doesn't it?
This is
> where we differ, I think, because I see the following and wonder
if it
> really is a study group to pass an OWL:
<SNIPS quotes, go UPTHREAD to read them>
> Interestingly enough, that group served to bring together those
from
> different houses - and some of those relationships remain even
after school,
> at least that year. And you're right, it wasn't the Order of the
Phoenix
> for Harry, or any of them, even Hermione. However there is a lot
of focus on
> Voldemort being back and the students comment on being able
to "fight"
> against him. My comparison is for ethics sake, not saying that
the DA was
> the equivalent.

Alla:

Bec dear, I love you. YES, me too, me too with everything you said.

> Carol responds:
<HUGE SNIP>
> And if being sarcastic to a student who demonstrates ignorance of
his
> subject is evidence of intent to murder that student, the WW's
justice
> system is worse off than we thought.
>
> At any rate, I seriously doubt that OFH!Snape would have been
thinking
> along these lines. He would have let him fall to rid himself of the
> rule-breaking brat.
<SNIP>

Alla:

or OFH!Snape could have realized that Dumbledore memory is " as good
as ever" and that Dumbledore may have remember how much love Snape
hold towards James ( and vice versa) and by extension towards Harry
AND OFH!Snape may have realized that no matter how much Dumbledore
closes his eyes at abuse ( my opinion only of course) Snape dishes
at Harry, Dumbledore is HIGHLY unlikely to close his eyes at Snape
murdering him.

That means Snape loosing the most valuable thing he IMO has going
for himself - the safety of Hogwarts, the protection of strongest
wizard in WW.

Nope, if I were OFH SNape I would not DARE to let Harry fall, IMO of
course.


> Alla:>
> > who does not dispute that Hermione can be ruthless, but who does
not
> > have much problem with it because IMO her heart is in the right
> > place.
> >
>
> Pippin:
> Aha! That is just the way some of us feel about Snape. We don't
> dispute that he can be cruel and that he goes too far at times,
but
> we don't have much problem with it because we think his heart is
> in the right place.
>
> I understand you feel that nobody whose heart was in the right
place
> could act like that, but that is just the way some of us feel
about what
> Hermione does to Marietta, do you see?

Alla:

Pippin, I really do not mean to sound snippy here, but what is your
point?

IF the point is to ask me whether I understand the analogy then
sure, I absolutely do.

If the point is whether I can see HOW Snape's heart can be in the
right place BECAUSE he behaves like this, then no I don't see it at
all.

Above in this post I said that I for the most part have to look at
WHY of the actions, yes, but I also said that some of the actions
are so unconscionable on its face that they are just bad and YES I
understand that this is how some ( or many, don't have the mumbers)
list members feel about what Hermione did.

I understand that, it is basically not possible for me to understand
where they are coming from on this issue, but yes, I accept that it
is also not possible for them to understand where I am coming from
on the issue on Snape's actions.

JMO,

Alla