Evil Hermione Was:Re: Evil Snape

[juli17 at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 154789

 
Alla:

Just wanted to briefly comment that I have not noticed that  being 
fifteen diminishes the seriousness of other characters actions in  
Potterverse. Draco at sixteen planns to do Dumbledore  assasination.

Harry at fifteen has the burden of saving the world. At  fifteen 
those kids play in the adults league and have to do something that  
some adults in RL will never get the chance to do.

So, NO the fact  that Marietta is fifteen does not help her much in 
my eyes, I mean, I will  not put her in the "terrible person" 
forever, but I won't cut her slack only  because of her age.
 
Julie:
I guess we'll agree to disagree then. It's a fact that the  brain in both
an emotional and logical sense is not completely developed at 15, 16  or
even 18 or 19. Teenagers do *not* think the same way adults do.  (Fact.)
A teenager does not understand all the ramifications of their actions 
in the same way an adult does. A teenager is more likely to make rash
decisions based on emotions like anger and fear, to react rather than
to think things out. (Fact.) There's a reason teenagers can't vote,  aren't
allowed to drink, have limited driving rights, etc--and can't  apparate
yet in the WW.
 
I am NOT saying youth absolves Draco or Marietta of their bad  decisions
or wrong-doings. But their very immaturity does affect how well they
are able to make decisions and truly understand the ramifications of
those decisions. It's enough for courts to generally give teenagers a
break, and for me to cut them *some* slack over their decisions.  After
all, we've done that for James and Sirius--recognizing that teenagers
can change from real berks to decent adult by lieu of maturing. 

Alla:
BUT I wanted to clarify, while I perfectly UNDERSTAND what  Hermione 
did and do not begrudge her trying to protect the illegal group  from 
the traitor , I do not think that she employed the perfect strategy  
either.

She should have talked and explained to them more before  making them 
signt he parchment AND while I stand by that Marietta deserved  what 
she got, I also think that leaving it for that long is cruel.
 
Julie:
In other words, you are saying that she was wrong. Not in a  large
way, but still wrong in not explaining the hex to the signers, and in
creating a hex that lasts so long. 

Alla:
But who says that Hermione can remove the hex, maybe it will  
dissappear when  the concequences of Marietta's actions will be  
healed?

Julie:
What consequences? That Harry *almost* got expelled? Well,
he didn't, so the consequences have already disappeared.
 
As for whether Hermione can reverse the hex or not, I don't know.
But if she can't, wouldn't it speak better of her if she'd make  some
acknowledgment of that fact, and maybe expressed regret that she
hexed Marietta with something so long-lasting when she could have
easily made her point and humiliated Marietta with a hex that only
lasted a limited time rather than one that has stretched into cruelty
(as you admit)? 
 
Irene:
> Oh, of course not. Never, ever. Unless your name is James.  ;-))))
>
> I don't care to count how many times the argument "We  can't define
a
> man's whole life by his one moment of stupidity when  he was 15"
came up.
> But it is a popular one, I think you would  agree.
>
> And yet people are perfectly happy to define Marietta's  life by
this one
> moment.

Alla:

I am trying very hard to  find where I said that Marietta's LIFE
should be defined by this one moment  and fail. Help me?

Quite the contrary, in the part that you snipped I  said that I would
not call Marietta a "terrible person" because of this one  action,
but I refuse to diminish the seriousness of this ACTION just  BECAUSE
she is fifteen.
 
Julie:
But you've said or implied before that you are basically okay  with
the way it worked out. She is marked permanently (from what we
can tell at the moment) as a traitor based on this one  action. That
is pretty much defining her by one moment, via Hermione. And
a lot of posters here, though maybe not you, have pretty much 
thrown Marietta to the wolves as a character, lumping her in with
the other "bad" characters in the books. 
 
Rebecca wrote:
 You take 
an oath, you perform to the oath. And yes, Julie, I  would in this case as 
Hermoine pass Marietta with her disfigurement and not  give a damn - loyalty 
and trust are that important to me. To me, the whole  structure of what JKR 
has written emphasizes that this is serious business,  acts of committment, 
trust and loyalty are not to be taken  lightly.   It's also intriguing that 
instead of going to her  mother and telling her, Marietta chose to tell 
Umbridge directly. Doubly  worse, IMO.
<snip>
Curious how Marietta still has the pimples (not pustules)  so the jinx must 
be wearing off in HBP - one would think since Marietta's  mother works for 
the Ministry, she would have taken her to St. Mungos. They  cured Katie Bell, 
so one would think a 15 year old's jinx wouldn't be  something they couldn't 
have handled.

Julie:
Really I'm not disputing that Marietta was wrong, or even that  her 
betrayal should have been revealed or even punished in some way.
But it's not really about Marietta for me, it's about Hermione. And  it's
not about creating a hex, it's about the type of hex  (unbreakable--sorry,
but ANY mother would have removed that hex from her  daughter's
face before a period of *months* had passed, even if the mother  thought
her daughter was wrong and told her so). And there is the fact that
Hermione didn't tell everyone exactly *what* they were signing (it
was just a DADA class to begin with) or the extreme  consequences
for breaking the oath. There was no logical reason to withhold that
information. 
 
Or maybe it's just me, and I'm too soft. I would have told everyone
what they were signing, I might have been fine with Marietta  wearing
the sneak hex for a short period to humiliate her, but I would  have
drawn the line at it lasting for months or years or forever. And if I 
didn't realize how permanent it was when I created it, I *would* have
pangs of guilt when passing Marietta in the hallway and seeing  her
disfigured face many months later. 
 
As for what JKR is trying to tell us, certainly loyalty is highly  valued
in the books, but other attributes are as much or more so. See  below.
 

Nikkalmati:
<snip> Marietta is a clear case of someone  suffering the bad
consequences of her own actions. HG never intentionally  hexed Marietta and
did not intend for anyone to be hexed. I am sure she would  have been
perfectly happy if no one had set off the SNEAK mark. HG set a trap  for
anyone who
violated the contract. Retribution was automatic and not  within HG's control.
 
Julie:
Certainly Marietta suffered the consequences because of her own  actions.
I also agree HG didn't intentionally hex *Marietta*, but I find  it very 
ingenuous
to suggest the hex was not within HG's control. She set it up in the first  
place,
so of course it was within her control! She could have not done it, she  could
have told everyone about the hex, she could have used a much more  limited
hex--that was *all* within her control. She made a choice just as  Marietta
did. 

<snip>
Nikkalmati:
As far as the length of time she is marked, I don't think  several months is
an indication that she will be marked "forever." If she  does not know how
she got the marks, it may not be possible to remove them. A  countercurse
logically requires knowledge of the curse. She would not know to  go to HG for
help and she may be afraid of DD now. Why can't Cho help her?  She could ask
Harry to find out what the curse was, if she does not want to  talk to HG.
Nikkalmati (who thinks the marks will fade eventually or go away  when LV is
gone and the DA is not needed).

Julie:
What I've basically been saying is that *Hermione* should take  the initiative
to remove the curse. That would be the right thing to do. That would be  the
kind, merciful thing to do at this point. Not wait for Marietta to figure  out
what she can't remember and beg Hermione to remove it. 
 
Gerry: 
To compare Hermione to Umbridge to me is just as ridiculous  as
comparing Ron's abuse of his prefects powers to Umbridge's abuse  of
her's. As for manipulation: what about Harry's manipulation of Ron?
Ron  who was completely prepared to play Quidditch when he thought
Harry had  spiked his drink with the Felix Felicitas potion, though he
perfectly knew  that this was illegal, and everything but sporting. I
found the last actually  very disturbing. 

Gerry, astonished at the negativity Hermione gets not  only in this
but in other posts as well. 



Julie:
My feelings about Hermione are more positive than negative. I  certainly
don't think she's comparable to Umbridge. But that also doesn't mean 
she's always right. I think she went too far with Marietta. Her  actions
and especially her lack of mercy or forgiveness (which I interpret  from
her argument with Cho and her disinterest/inaction after  Marietta is
oblivated and well into HBP) do give me pause. And I think JKR  wrote
it that way intentionally, just as she meant us to be uncomfortable
with the behavior of James and Sirius in the pensieve incident. 
 
JKR has said before that Dumbledore is her epitome of goodness, which
I believe is because of his ability to show mercy and forgiveness, to 
be tolerant of people's differences and their human tendency to make 
mistakes, and to extend second chances even after the worst mistakes
and misjudgments. I imagine that's also where her Christian  underpinings
will come in. It won't be about vengeance on your enemies even when 
they richly deserve it. It will be about rising above your enemies  morally
and ethically, as Dumbledore does. 
 
Hey, I know it's not what a lot of people want to happen, but I can't  see
how JKR can make her own views much clearer than the way she has
portrayed her "epitome of goodness" character.
 
All IMO of course,
 
Julie 
 
 
 


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