a lot of Names, interrupted with a lot of Traitors, Lily's Crush, McG/Hooch

[festuco]

No: HPFGUIDX 154966

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at ...>
wrote:

> Carol responds:
> There's no need to get personal here. As it happens, I have a PhD in
> British literature because I share your preference for British
> literature and history over American history, but even if I preferred
> American history and literature, or dared to state that a certain "far
> away country" has had some influence on world history, that would not
> make me arrogant any more than it would make an Englishperson who
> spoke of England's influence an Imperialist. I would hardly be proud,
> by the way, of the history of witch persecution in either country, any
> more than Spain should be proud of its Inquisition (and, yes, I know
> that there were other inquisitions).

Gerry
I'm sorry, but the Salem witch trials did not have that much influence
 on world history. They are a minor note in a horrible period. There
have been awful examples stated already, like Matthew Hopkins who was
active in that time and he made many more vicitms. In those days in
Scotland, there died more people. I'm sure JKR knew about the Salem
trials, Salem is rather famous, but to assume she knew exactly when
that happened and that she choose the date of that minor case of
persecution when there were places before when many more were killed
for the WW to go into hiding is rather far fetched.

Carol
> *Something* happened in 1692 to prompt the Statute of Secrecy. In RL,
> a famous event involving persecution of witches and a few warlocks
> happened in Salem in that year.

Gerry
Actually I think the Statue went the same way as all these kind of
things. Years and years in the making, in debatting about it,
international cooperation, different factions, different ideas, and
finally they had something and it became active. I do think that
Muggles fear of magic had something to do with the idea of needing a
statue, but I think we are talking about at least 50 years in the making. 

What happened in Salem was exactly the same as what happened in
countries everywhere. Muggles were accusing Muggles and killing
Muggles. If real witches and warlocks were indeed at risk from hanging
or other means of death as opposed to burning from which they were
clearly not, Harry's essay title would have been something like:
compare different methods Muggles used to kill witches and why all but
burning were effective. I think JKR was very unaware of witch hunts,
not only did she place them in the wrong historical period, but I'm
quite sure she did not know that in some places witches were not
burned but hanged. The point of Harry's essay and what he has to study
is to prove how utterly ineffective the persecutions were for real
Witches and Wizards. If there were effective methods for persecuting
the real ones, his education is very lacking, to say the least. To
presume that this would be different because of a different killing
method is to me not believable because in complete contrast from what
we get from canon. 

A very plausible theory about why the WW went into hiding is one that
I read in a fanfiction story: Muggles outnumber Wizards and Witches
rather spectacularly. The WW is not big enough to create a Magical
dictatorship, besides quite a lot of people would not agree. Living
among Muggles openly would have all kinds of drawbacks, especially
when Muggles were afraid of magic. So quiet separation was the normal
course. 

JKR, however limited her knowledge of
> history may be (and I'm guessing it's a bit shaky given Sir Nickolas's
> Elizabethan ruff), is clearly familiar with the Salem Witch Trials or
> she would not have had a contingent from the Salem Institute at the
> QWC. 

Gerry
I would not say she is familiar with them. Having heard of them, yes,
but familiar is quite a bit more. 

Gerry
> Carol, who again asks anyone who opposes her suggestion to present a
> plausible alternative rather than implying that the idea of presenting
> a bit of shared British and American history in a post is somehow
> "arrogant"
>
What I find arrogant is presuming that nineteen people killed in
Massachusetts would warrant an International statue of Secrecy,
whereas the over 200 witches Hopkins hanged before that would not. 

Gerry