Harry Horcrux redux

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 155067

Carol earlier:
> > <snip>
> >
> > How, then, does Harry see into Voldemort's mind and speak
Parseltongue if he's not a Horcrux? Simple. We accept Dumbledore's
explanation given early on that some of LV's *powers* were transferred
to Harry at GH
>
> Neri:
> This isn't an explanation, it's a description. It boils down
> to "Voldemort's powers were transferred to Harry because Voldemort's
> powers were transferred to Harry".
>
Carol again:
Okay, I think I understand what you're saying. The explanation doesn't
seem to explain, as Frodo would put it. It doesn't provide a
*mechanism* for the transfer of powers. But you know those
white-bearded old wizards. It's all the explanation we're likely to get.

Seriously, until HBP, everyone accepted the transfer of powers as
sufficient to explain why Harry can speak Parseltongue. I think it's
quite likely that he has other powers as well that aren't native to
him (using Tolkien's phrase again), not counting the power of Love
acquired via his mother's sacrifice. I think it's very likely that he
acquired the power of possession as well, and we know that he acquired
a form of Legilimency peculiar to him--more on that later.

Granted, we don't know the mechanism, but it may be unimportant, at
least in JKR's view. Consider her "explanation" of how Patronuses work.

Bottom line: We *know* that some of Voldemort's powers (or carbon
copies of them) were transferred to Baby!Harry. We *don't* know that
they were transferred via a soul bit. One is canon; the other is
speculation. I could provide you with my own speculations, but they
won't convince you, and I'm not sure of them myself. But I *am* sure
that an accidental Horcrux is not the only possible explanation, and
there's no canon whatever to support the idea that a Horcrux can be
created accidentally. Slughorn tells us that encasing the soul bit
requires a spell (most likely a complex bit of Dark magic considering
the heinousness and rarity of Horcruxes), and no such spell was or
could have been performed at Godric's Hollow.

> > Carol:
> > and that the scar creates a conduit between them, perhaps because
Harry acquired a particular form of Legilimency ("the usual rules
don't seem to apply to you, Potter") along with the Parseltongue.
>
> Neri:
> The problem is that no such particular form of Legilimency was ever
> described in the series. So if this will be the explanation it's
> going to be a very ad-hoc explanation (and IMO also a bit of an
> anticlimax).
>
Carol again:
On the contrary, the whole of OoP involves exactly that form of
atypical Legilimency. Snape tells Harry that time and space matter in
magic, and that eye contact is usually necessary in performing
Legilimency, and then he tells Harry that the usual rules don't seem
to apply in his case. Throughout OoP, and to a lesser extent in the
earlier books, Harry is sensing first Voldemort's presence and then
his moods, which he begins to read very precisely. At first it's only
anger, but then he senses that Voldemort is "really happy about
something." He begins to share Voldemort's dreams and to enter his
mind, seeing Voldemort's hands as his own, speaking in his voice,
thinking his thoughts (and the snake's) as Voldemort is possessing
Nagini. For that reason, Dumbledore and Snape are trying to get Harry
to close his mind to Voldemort, both to prevent Voldemort from reading
Harry's mind (forgive the phrase, Severus) and to prevent Harry from
reading Voldemort's. I'd say that's a form of Legilimency peculiar to
Harry, which he clearly acquired along with the scar itself and the
other unspecified powers at Godric's Hollow. The scar as a conduit
between Harry and Voldemort is canon, as is the ability to see into
Voldemort's mind without the eye contact usually required for
Legilimency. No Horcrux required, just the acquisition of powers that
would otherwise be peculiar to Voldemort.

Neri:
> OTOH we have a ripped soul part released into the air in GH (once
Voldemort had lost his body). <snip>

Carol:
Do we? I thought the wizard had to detach the ripped soul part from
the main soul and encase it in an object using a spell. There's
nothing to indicate any part of Voldy's soul floating around Godric's
Hollow except the main soul expelled from his body. In any case,
Voldemort killed two people, not one, before trying to kill Harry, and
there's no indication that he intended to use either of those soul
bits to create a Horcrux. And what about all the other murders that he
personally committed (Marlene McKinnon is one of them, IIRC) but were
not used for Horcruxes because they weren't important enough? Those
torn bits must still be part of the damaged main soul because they
were never ripped off and encased in Horcruxes. (I think of his soul
as having a large number of perforations, like a sheet of postage
stamps.) All those unused soul bits have to be somewhere, and I
doubt that they're all floating around loose in the WW. (IMO, the soul
bits released from the diary and the ring are behind the Veil.)

Carol earlier:
> > So, as I see it, there's no plot reason for Harry (or his scar) to
be a Horcrux,
>
> Neri:
> There's an obvious plot reason for Harry to be a Horcrux, and
> especially the *last* Horcrux: It would mean that he has Voldemort's
> memories up to the point when this Horcrux was created. IOW the
> identities and locations of all the previous Horcruxes are stored in
> Harry's head. He only has to come to terms with what he is and reach
> deep enough into his own mind.

Carol:
Obvious to you, perhaps. To me, it's obvious that the last Horcrux
should be Nagini. Harry will have to kill her anyway. Why not kill two
birds (or plot elements) with one stone?

And where is your evidence that a soul bit contains memories? The
diary contained a specific memory of an incident that occurred on June
13 fifty years before CoS. It may have contained other memories of
that year as well--the ones that Tom recorded in the diary and wanted
the person who opened it to read. There's no evidence that it included
all of his memories up to that time--it was a one-year diary, and he
may not have recorded memories for every day of the school year--only
those that would help him carry on Salazar Slytherin's "noble work."
When diary!Tom stepped out of its pages, *he* retained the memories of
his earlier life, but would that hold true for a Horcrux in which only
a soul bit, not a memory, would be encased? The other Horcruxes are
intended to protect the soul bit, not to be interactive. I think
you're assuming more than we really know.

You like the resolution that you think Horcrux!Harry would provide. I
see your version as only one possible version of the Horcrux!Harry
theory, and Horcrux!Harry as only one possible solution to the
destruction of Voldemort. There's nothing obvious or necessary about
it. Nor can you state as fact that Riddle's memories would be stored
in Harry's head if he's a Horcrux. If that's the case, why hasn't Hary
had access to them, especially in OoP, when he was so closely attuned
to Voldemort? All he's seen (and felt and heard) so far has been
occurring at the present moment, and even that channel is now blocked
because Voldemort is using Occlumency to block Harry's peculiar brand
of Legilimency.

Carol, wishing she'd never heard of Horcruxes and seeing no way out of
the problems that destroying the last Horcrux would present if it
turns out to be Harry