Who or what is Nagini? (Was: Harry Horcrux redux)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 155092

Carol earlier:
> > Okay, I still think that Nagini is an entirely different snake
from the boa constrictor, which is IMO just a plot device to show that
Harry can talk to snakes, and that Nagini is a Horcrux (and has been
one for a long time, as indicated by the effects of her venom on LV)
> 
> Peggy W:
> I think it's a pretty big leap of an assumption that Nagini must be
> one of Voldemort's Horcruxes *because* of how Voldemort used her
> venom.  

Carol responds:
Please note "I still think" in the quoted partial sentence, which
you've taken out of context. I was repeating a hypothesis that I've
attempted to support with canon in various posts (the only assumption
being that fellow list members had read the venom argument and that I
didn't need to repeat it in this post). Far from taking my hypothesis
for granted, I was raising possible objections to my own idea,
problems that I haven't resolved in my own mind. I'm saying that *if*
Nagini was a Horcrux before Godric's Hollow, or even if Voldemort and
Nagini were, erm, acquaintances before Godric's Hollow, I'm confused
about how they got back together. In fact, it's unclear when and how
they got together at all, or what a "dirty great snake" that would be
more at home in India or Africa was doing in Albania when Wormtail
found Voldemort there. Speculations from anyone would be welcome.

I was also suggesting, not assuming, that perhaps Voldemort was
possessing Nagini when Quirrell brought Voldemort back to England. He
was not yet possessing Quirrell, and it would be hard to bring him
back in Vapor form, so, IMO, he must have been possessing some
creature. Why not Nagini, which would explain how she got to England?
(Maybe Quirrell, the soon-to-be DADA instructor, had special
permission from the MoM to import her? Or he sneaked her in using the
same (illegal?) means he used to smuggle in the dragon's egg? Just
raising a question that I haven't seen satisfactorily answered and
proposing a possible solution that fits in with my Nagini
speculations. However, that bit of speculation is not critical to the
Nagini!Horcrux idea, so you may not be interested in answering it. I'd
be interested from hearing from others about it though. (CV? Here's
your chance to talk about Quirrell to a ready listener.)

Perhaps you (Peggy) can provide your own hypothesis as to how
Voldemort and Nagini got together, which must have been before
Wormtail used her venom (together with unicorn blood) to create a
rudimentary body for Voldemort. You might also explain Voldemort's
apparent immunity to, or even dependence on, Nagini's "milk" if she's
something other than a Horcrux. (I've answered your idea that it's
"just some magical potion" below.) As Dumbledore says, the
relationship between them seems to go beyond the usual power of a
Parseltongue over snakes (which we see in Morfin and in young Tom
Riddle, who says that snakes "come to him").

Peggy W:
> Actually, we don't even know that he took her venom directly:
it may have been used to make some magical potion that sustained him,
in which case its poisonous nature would have been altered. The
> unlucky task of "milking" her fell to Wormtail, which must mean that
> Voldemort could not directly partake of it.  If he were capable of
> doing that himself, I think he would have done so.  I think that
> Wormtail must be doing something that Voldemort cannot do at this
> point (we know he prefers to work alone when he can), and to me that
> suggests that Voldemort is not drinking snake venom directly.
> Therefore, it seems more likely that he is consuming a potion made
out of it by Wormtail. <snip>

Carol responds:
Wormtail "milked" her because Baby!mort was too weak and helpless to
do obtain the venom himself, not because Voldemort couldn't "directly
partake of it," which I take to mean "couldn't drink the undiluted
venom." Your assumption that he's drinking "some magical potion"
rather than the undiluted venom is not supported by canon (all potions
in the HP books are magical, BTW). Wormtail's demonstrated ability to
brew potions does not mean that he's doing so here, and even if he is,
Voldemort is still dependent on Nagini's venom as a vital component of
the supposed potion. Your argument that the venom may be a potion
ingredient and therefore Voldemort isn't dependent on it is like
saying that Lupin isn't dependent on wolfsbane, only on wolfsbane
potion, to keep his mind during his transformations. I think Snape
might have had some difficulty concocting wolfsbane potion without
that key ingredient. 

Let's look at the canon:

"'You will milk her before we retire, Wormtail,' said the second
voice. 'I will need feeding in the night. the journey has tired me
greatly" (GoF Am. ed. 7). No suggestion that Wormtail needs to brew a
potion, only that Voldemort, in his present fetal form, has to be
cared for like some hideous baby, *fed* with Nagini's "milk" by his
servant, Wormtail.

"'Wormtail was able to follow the instructions I gave him, which would
return me to a rudimentary, weak body of my own, a body that I would
be able to inhabit while awaiting the essential ingredients for true
rebirth . . . a spell or two of my own invention . . . a little help
from my dear Nagini,' Voldemort's red eyes fell upon the continually
circling snake, 'a potion concocted of unicorn blood, and the snake
venom Nagini provided . . . I was soon returned to an almost human
form, and strong enough to travel'" (656, ellipses in original).

Voldemort's dependence on his "dear Nagini" is clear--without her
venom, he would not have had even the "rudimentary, weak body" that we
see in "The Riddle House" and "Flesh, Blood, and Bone." His gratitude
and affection for her are clear, and contrast markedly with his
treatment of his Death Eaters.

Any idea how this dependence on venom that would be lethal to any
other wizard came about if she's not a Horcrux? His having other
Horcruxes explains why the venom doesn't kill him, but not how it can
be used (along with unicorn blood) to create a fetal form for him to
"inhabit" or to sustain that fetal form. I've provided both the canon
evidence of this dependence and my interpretation of that evidence and
pointed out that even if Nagini's venom is merely a potion ingredient,
as it does not seem to be, Voldemort is still dependent on it. Hardly
an unfounded assumption, but perhaps I'm giving it too much weight.
How do you account for the dependence and the emotional attachment of
Voldemort to Nagini, the only living being for whom he has shown any
affection?

Peggy W:
> I'm sorry to lean on this point yet again, but to me this whole line
> of questioning is based on assumptions that have a poor foundation.
> That means the line of questions and any conclusions reached from it
> are suspect.  I just wanted to register my objections.  

Carol responds:
Thank you for registering your objections, but I'm afraid that doing
so doesn't disprove my hypothesis. I think that you might find it more
useful to examine the more detailed arguments in the main thread
rather than this little post you're quoting from here, which was
merely intended to answer the boa constrictor = Nagini idea. I would
welcome alternative interpretations of the canon I've presented as
opposed to the repeated assertion that my hypothesis is based on
"poorly founded assumptions." I understand that you think my
conclusions are suspect, but you haven't convinced me that you're
correct. Have you found any counterevidence that I haven't cited?

Dumbledore himself thinks that Nagini is a Horcrux. I agree, but I
believe that he's mistaken as to the time when she became one. I've
supported that contention with evidence that he's either unaware of or
has apparently overlooked. (Not all of my arguments appear in this
post.) The charge that my conclusions are based on faulty assumptions
can't be supported. They have a firm canonical foundation. It's up to
you to provide a plausible counterinterpretation (and up to JKR to
prove one or both of us wrong when Book 7 comes out).

Carol, wishing she had a spell for conjuring the needed quotes without
the bother of looking them up and typing them out