Accidental Harrycrux with a Bloodsucking Snake (long)

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 155179

> Carol responds:
<snip>
> But how else can you account for
> a cut (which is still unhealed when Hagrid places Baby!Harry on the
> Dursleys' front porch) from a spell that ordinarily leaves no mark,

Mike responds:
Well, I account for the cut soon-to-be scar by a piece of LV's soul
being implanted into Harry's forehead.

> It *is* canon, however, that the scar is not created immediately:
>
<snip>
> Dumbledore says "He'll have that scar forever,"
> but at the moment it isn't yet a scar. It's a cut that heals
> into a scar.
<snip>
> So unless Voldemort's powers entered Harry through the AK <snip>
> they must have entered Harry's head through the open wound.

Mike again:
Or, Voldemort passes some of his powers to Harry by accidently
implanting a piece of his soul into Harry.

> Carol:
> No. If you believe the Horcrux theory, you postulate a mechanism.
> That's not the same thing as knowing it.

Mike again:
Yes, you're right, I am postulating the mechanism. But we do have it
in canon that having a piece of LV's soul cohabiting with your body
will allow you to speak Parseltongue. Ginny did in CoS when the
diary revenant was possessing her. (BTW, Note also that this is an
inate ability, not a learned skill. I haven't noticed any other LV
ability that Harry possesses. Can you think of any others?)

We don't have any other method in canon of acquiring another's
abilities. Even LV's possession of Quirrell doesn't seem to impart
any additional abilities to Quirrell, although there isn't enough
exact info to determine this either way. JKR has never even hinted
that the 'AK that rebounded' by itself could impart powers to the
intended victim. So, we have one thing in canon that explains
Harry's ability to speak Parseltongue: Harry has a piece of LV's
soul in him. That doesn't mean that it's proven, true, or even
desirable, but it is our *only* explanation for this ability that
has canon support, so far.

> Carol:
<snip>
> Whether a Horcrux would be "a significant way" to mark him as his
> equal or not is irrelevant without evidence that he has indeed done
> so. We have evidence that the powers were transferred, but we have
> no evidence (other than a few scattered hints like Harry's feeling
> that Tom was an old friend,
 <snip>
> and none whatever that a Horcrux can be created accidentally.

Mike again:
I think we're arguing the same thing from different directions here.
We both agree that when LV "transferred some of his own powers" to
Harry was what signified *marking*. We'll have to agree to disagree
on the method of transfer. We have one more clue, which immediately
follows the above quote:

"'Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?' Harry said, thunderstruck.

'It certainly seems so.'" (CoS p.333, US)

Is a "bit of himself" a piece of his soul or just "some of his own
powers" through some as yet unknown means? Like I say, we'll have to
agree to disagree.

> Carol reponds:
<snip>
> That Voldemort tried to kill Harry *because he was the Prophecy
> Boy*, not merely because he wanted another Horcrux (if indeed he
> did), is canon.

Mike again:
Not my nor Neri's point. Voldemort wanted to kill Harry *and* create
his final Horcrux with Harry's death (at least according to DD).
Neri's point, which I find plausible but not in canon, was that
Voldemort changes his strategy when he discovered in the MoM that
Harry is carrying his last Horcrux. We do *not* think LV went to GH
with the *intention* of making Harry a Horcrux, hence the
'accidental Horcrux theory'.

> Carol reponds:
> It's also canon that Voldemort has tried to kill
> Harry on several later occasions. Clearly, *if* Harry is a
> Horcrux, Voldemort didn't intend for him to be one or he wouldn't
> have tried repeatedly to kill him, nor did he know of his
> accidental Horcrux (if that's what Harry is) as late as the
> attempted possession in the MoM or he wouldn't have tried to tempt
> Dumbledore to kill Harry.

Mike:
Yep, Voldemort didn't know Harry was a Horcrux until after he
possessed him. That's what we're saying. Up until that point LV only
wants Harry dead.

> Carol:
> And it was not a bit of Voldemort's own soul that drove him out
> of Harry's body and mind during the attempted possession; it was
> the love Harry was feeling for Sirius Black, which Voldemort
> could not endure.
<snip>

Mike:
Yep, I agree. I only said that LV discovered his accidental Horcrux,
not that it had anything to do with expelling him out of Harry.

> Carol:
> So while Neri could be right that Harry is an accidental Horcrux
> and Voldemort has just realized that fact, I think we'd have had
> a clearer hint from Dumbledore, who says that he's telling
> Harry everything he needs to know to defeat Voldemort and who
> certainly would have reached the conclusion before Voldemort did
> given his superior powers of deduction. If Dumbledore, who figured
> out that the diary was a Horcrux and that there were six Horcruxes
> in all, didn't figure out that Harry is or could be a Horcrux, how
> could Voldemort do so, and how is Harry supposed to figure it out?
<snip>

Mike:
First off, I'm not sure DD didn't figure it out. It wouldn't be the
first time that DD failed to release info before it was too late,
would it? He didn't tell Harry about the prophecy and LV's obsession
with hearing the rest of it until after Sirius got killed. He never
explained his full reason for trusting Snape (nobody believes
the 'official' regret story, do they?), and now Harry is sure Snape
is one of the bad guys, having never been told the whole story.
Dumbledore makes mistakes, huge ones, right? This may or may not be
another one.

Secondly, I don't have a problem with LV sensing and recognizing his
own soul when he encounters it. He's already done more magic with
his own soul than any other wizard ever.

And Harry figuring it out is part of what we are expecting in book
7. I don't know how he will, but I'm looking forward to finding out.
In any case, how hard it might be for Harry is not a reason against
it, but a desire that things will be easier for Harry.

> Carol:
> And what signs do we have that Voldemort has changed his strategy
> regarding Harry since the end of OoP, when he tried first to kill
> Harry and then to possess Harry and have Dumbledore kill him?
> Would he sacrifice a Horcrux so readily? I think not.
<snip>

Mike:
I think LV would like to salvage his Horcrux out of Harry if
possible. Hence, Neri's postulation that LV might have changed is
strategy (speculation, not canon). OTOH, I'm sure losing that piece
of soul would be worth it to LV  if it meant resolving the prophesy
in his favor. Making six Horcruxes not only gave him his "powerfully
magical number" it means he could afford to lose a few without
destroying his entire strategy for immortality.

Is Nagini a Horcrux? A few reservations about this theory:
1. We have nothing in canon that Nagini is magical, although I
*suspect* she is. But parselmouths can talk to all snakes, and the
only other thing we get in canon is that she has poisoneous venom,
not necessarily magical venom.
2. If Voldemort puts a piece of himself into Nagini, wouldn't it
follow that Nagini would take on LV's characteristics, not the other
way around?
3. If making Nagini a Horcrux gives LV snakelike appearance then he
must have done it back before 1957, before LV's interview with DD
that we witnessed in the pensieve:
"His features were ...not *as* snakelike,..." (HBP p.441, US)
Not *as* snakelike means they are still somewhat snakelike, just not
as much as they will be when LV emerges from the cauldron 'reborn'.
I'm sure the theory isn't that LV starts to look snakelike without
Nagini!Horcrux and only looks *more* snakelike after Nagini!Horcrux.

Of course, since LV had already used the diary, the ring, the
locket, and the cup as Horcruxes,(that's 2 founder's objects out of
4 Horcruxes) using Nagini as his fifth means that all the way back
before 1957 LV gave up on using something from all 4 of the
founders. Does this seem likely?