muggle baiting vs. muggle torture

[Jordan Abel]

No: HPFGUIDX 155338

> Magpie:
> Interesting question.  Dudley couldn't make anything on that level,
> because Magic is required for Potions--we Muggles can't make them.
> But I wonder what they could taint the candy with in a Muggle way
> that would be on the same level without seeming insane!

Random832:
It's not clear from canon that magic in terms of the magic a wizard
uses is _required_ for potions - all Snape says, if you read closely,
is that magic is _involved_. He could very well simply have meant the
magical properties of the ingredients (and, in that case since potions
still work _on_ muggles, there's no reason to think they wouldn't also
work _for_ them.)

> Random832:
> I'm talking about the choice between hexing someone vs punching them
> in the face, not vs doing nothing to them. - the former is more
> natural. There are plenty of things that you don't _need_ to use
> your thumb for, but you use it anyway. I'd say "it's second nature",
> except it's not. there's no "second" about it.
>
> Magpie:
> The Twins actually do punch naturally when they're angry, just like
> Muggles do--they do it in OotP.

Random832:
But is it because they're restraining themselves from using magic in
particular, or is it simply a case of a punch being more natural in
one situation, vs a hex in another, vs a kick in still another?

> Magpie:
> If they did that to Dudley in this
> scene they'd still be two 16-year-olds ganging up to punch a 14-year-
> old, but I couldn't say they were abusing their power as Wizards.
> The Dursleys wouldn't need another Wizard there to fix things for
> them, at least.

I thought that the effect wears off, and that it wore off in this
instance - it's been a while since I've read the books, though.

> I mean, I accept that the boys aren't perfect and
> sometimes they're just going to act out and do something that
> satisfies them or whatever.  But I do think Magic this way is
> bringing out big guns and they just don't really ever try to think
> of things from the Muggle pov.

If they're not thinking of things from the muggle POV, what reason do
you have to think that they have any idea that magic is "big guns"?

> Jordan:
> I don't know the context. But see my previous statement about a
> (non-related-to-the-bully) victim bringing his older brother to the
> schoolyard so he can intimidate the bully.
>
> Magpie:
> Oh--yes, I think that's fine.  It's not like the 8-year-old boy is
> bringing his 16-year-old brother and the older brother is beating
> the 8-year-old bully up for him.  He stops the harassment.  An older
> brother throwing a bottle at the kid who used to beat up his brother
> in fifth grade would be a different thing.

"Used to" isn't clear - particularly if (I can't quite place this
scene) it takes place after CoS, when the Dursleys know Harry isn't
allowed to use magic at home. (and the age difference is a bit
narrower here than 8 vs 16, a demonstration might well be needed if
the bully otherwise thinks he can take them)

> Random832:
> Judging it to be wrong is one thing, but I still think, regardless
> of that, you're misapplying the term "muggle-baiting".
>
> Magpie:
> Ah, I see what you're saying.  So it's abuse of Muggles, but not
> Muggle *baiting* which you see as a very specific thing, where you
> trick Muggles with Magic and they keep thinking something weird is
> going on and have no idea.  I can understand that--though I agree
> with Pippin's explanation that Arthur is (correctly, imo) saying
> that this undermines the spirit of his work against Muggle-baiting.

Random832:
Sure... Though, as a muggle, if I were in that world and knew about it
I don't think I'd approve of Arthur's "work" at all. It's the
ministry's job to make sure you go on thinking you keep losing the key
instead of it shrinking, and I don't approve of that at all.

> Magpie:
> I only wind up arguing against it so much when it's twisted
> into some kind of bizarre self-help for Dudley, or something that
> Dudley does to himself.

Random832:
Well, he did cheat on his diet. I'm sure there are some people who
would actually like to have such a strong deterrent to help with their
diet/quitting smoking/etc (though not without their
knowledge/permission of course)

If Vernon/Petunia were willing to impose a diet, you know then that he
really was in _dire_ need of one. Having no immediate consequences for
going off it would have almost certainly been much worse for him in
the long run. But we can't really give the twins credit for that,
since there's no way that was anywhere in their motives.