muggle baiting vs. muggle torture

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 155382

> >>Marion Ros:
> > These sadistic little twerps have a *history* of feeding younger
> > kids harmful sweets, and it has nothing to do with justice,
> > whatsoever.  They've also have a history of tormenting younger
> > children and animals.

> >>Felix:
> I think this is not due to a sadistic nature, but more of a result
> of their upbringing. By this I don't mean that Mr and Mrs Weasly
> raised them wrong or instilled some intrinsic instinct in them to 
> drive them to what can be viewed by some as sadistic behaviour,   
> but rather the twin factor.
> <snip>
> They grow up understanding each other so implicitly- so aware of  
> each other's whims and fancies- that they forget that the rest of 
> the world is outside of their special bond. Just because they     
> understand each other so well, doesn't mean that everyone else    
> understands them equally as well, and I think that this is        
> important. Because all they've ever known is that to each other,   
> all motives are quite clear and they both find it quite obvious   
> that they mean no harm- so everyone else must automatically know   
> this too.
> <snip>
> This in no way means that their actions were excusable, or that the
> consequences of their pranks could have gone terribly awry and the
> intent lost. It just means that they don't do what they do out of
> deliberate maliciousness or even a subconcious vindictiveness. It's
> just them assuming that any prank without harmful intent cannot
> possibly lead to bad things, and cannot possibly be misunderstood.

Betsy Hp:
This is a *fascinating* take on the twins.  Oddly enough (because 
I'm not a big fan of the twins) I do agree with it.  I think, 
especially in the beginning, the twins did what they did out of 
boyish exuberance, rather than an innate cruelty.  But I do think 
things are starting to go wrong.  I think the twins *have* started 
to behave more maliciously and that, if they aren't checked, they 
could go down a seriously dark path.

Part of the problem I do lay at Arthur and Molly's feet.  They do 
not seem to have set some basic ground rules as I think they should 
have.  I think we see *why* this occured in the scene following the 
prank on Dudley.  Arthur is not respected by the twins; I think 
because he checked out of the family a long time ago, possibly 
before the twins were even born.  When he does try and play the 
father, they blow him off.  Crazy old Dad and his crazy ways, etc.  
And they don't seem to respect Molly either; I think because she's 
too emotional and treats everything they do as the worst behavior 
ever.  When your mother screams at you about *everything* you stop 
taking her screams about anything seriously.

This lack of respect is undermined, IMO, by Arthur's and Molly's 
inability to work as a team.  Arthur sees the issue as treatment of 
muggles, Molly sees the issue as their joke shop.  Both parents 
makes clear they think the other parent is wrong in their view, and 
the twins walk away thinking that niether parent is valid.

What this has lead to, IMO, is the twins not learning when to check 
themselves.  All they've learned is it's best to not get caught.  
They don't know, nor do they seem to care, about *why* their 
behavior might be bad. 

On top of all this, they go to a school with built in scapegoats.  
Slytherins are understood (especially in Gryffindor) to be lesser-
than.  You might prick them and they may even bleed, but they 
probably didn't really feel it.  So the twins, at fourteen (IIRC), 
hiss eleven year old Slytherins at the Sorting.  No prefects or 
professors say a word, so it's okay (they think) to pick on 
Slytherins.

Which, okay, hissing small children is a bit drippy behavior to my 
mind, but it's not horrible.  But I think that leads to the twins 
feeling no sense of remorse for what they do to Montague.  And 
that's a big step, IMO.  They toss a human-being into a *broken* 
magical object.  That human-being isn't seen for weeks.  When he 
does finally show up he's in the hospital for a long time. Never 
once do we get a sense that the twins feel the slightest remorse.

I don't think the twins had murder on their minds when they threw 
Montague away.  I doubt they even had torture.  But the consequences 
of their actions was that Montague suffered and nearly died.  And 
their brother Bill is permanently disfigured.  I don't think the 
twins were going for that outcome either.

The thing is though, they need to *realize* that they've done 
wrong.  It's very possible they will (thanks to Ron?) and that may 
turn them from the path they're on.  But I do think they've crossed 
a line and aren't even aware of it.

Betsy Hp