Hate crimes (was Re: muggle baiting vs. muggle torture)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 155798

> > >>Alla:
> > Eh, No, this was how Betsy analogised the prank, I don't 
see      
> > anything close to this analogy in what twins did.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Hmm, that's actually *exactly* how I meant to present that 
analogy.  
> So wasn't as clear as I wanted to be, so let me try again. <g>

Alla:

No, you were very clear. I probably was not. I just do not see that 
your analogy below reflects what happens in the book **at all**. I 
particularly do not **see** what Twins did to Dursley 
as having **any** antisemitic or racist undertones.

Betcy Hp: 
> Okay, so we're in Russia, and the Dursleys are Jews.  They've been 
> given Harry, a Christian, to care for and they treat him badly and 
> their son, Dudley, bullies him.  Two older friends of Harry, 
> Christians themselves, Fred and George, decide they're going to 
get 
> back at Dudley for bullying Harry.  Since they live in an area 
where 
> Jews are bullied by Christians in general, they decide that it'll 
be 
> funny to attach a sign saying "Dirty Jew" to Dudley's back.

Alla:

Just for the sake of clarity ( not very relevant here, but still), 
that everybody else hates or ot least dislikes Jews, the majority 
would be atheistic population, because even though orthodox 
christian was **officially** sort of accepted, practicing **any** 
religion was not encouraged, at least when I was growing up, so many 
different branches of christianity were not officially liked either.

So, back to Twins. I find your analogy flawed, for the simple reason 
that I don't remember Twins to attach any signs to Dudley, saying 
**Dirty Muggle**, if we take your analogy literally, and if we take 
it less literally, I see no indication whatsoever that prank was 
played because Dudley was a muggle, I think Twins would have played 
this prank on anybody, Muggle or Wizard alike.

I am sorry, I really am feeling that I repeating myself for upteenth 
time. I doubt I will be up for clarifying my position again.

Is it clear enough? Your analogy was presented clear, it just it 
falls absolutely flat for me - since I see very little if any 
similarities between it and what really happened on the page.


Betsy Hp:
> They are specifically using the fact that as Christians they are 
> more powerful, and they are specifically using the fact that 
Dudley 
> is Jewish to give him a bit of pay back.  And they think it's 
funny.

Alla:

Yes, and I don't see that Twins **are** using the fact that they are 
Wizards.
 
Betsy Hp:
> The twins explain to their father that they didn't put that sign 
on 
> Dudley *because* he's Jewish, they were just thinking of Harry.  
> Their father rages, "That's not the point!"  But the rest of the 
> family laughs because they don't like these particular Jews anyway.

Alla:

Um, yes, any **sign** on Dudley and your analogy would become easier 
for me to see. :)

 
> Betsy Hp:
> The thing is though, the prank in the analogy *depends* on Dudley 
> being Jewish.  If the twins in the analogy pasted a "Dirty Jew" 
sign 
> on the back of a Christian kid, the reaction would be totally 
> different.  

Alla:

Yes, in the **analogy**, not in the books IMO. Twins in the books 
the way I see it, wanted to teach a lesson to the bully, who 
happened to be Muggle, without caring that he is a Muggle.

Ignorance of the reaction Muggles may have to the Prank, I can at 
least **try** to see, but **any** kind of intent to target Muggle? 
Sorry, I just don't.


Betsy Hp:
> The prank *depended* on Dudley being a Muggle.  That's why I see 
it 
> as Muggle-baiting.

Alla:

But how did it depend on Dudley being a Muggle? Would not have 
wizard got the same tongue? Wouldn't it had been fixed just as 
Arthur would have done?

We went into fignting analogies, but this prank does not **imply** 
that whoever is a victim of the prank **should** fight back, it just 
supposed to be fixed , one way or another.

 
> Betsy Hp:
> Oh, the Death Eaters would have found the Dursley family's panic 
> *hilarious*, which, frankly, should be a bit of a warning sign, 
> IMO.  And it's this bullying behavior that worries me about the 
> twins.  However, they don't have a fanatical hatred for muggles.  
> Not that I've seen, anyway.  

Alla:

I don't remember examples that twins have **any** kind of hatred for 
Muggles.

JMO,

Alla.