Whose side are we on?? (was: Arthur right or not? ( was Hate crimes (was Re: muggle baiting v

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 155956

Ceridwen:
I can't believe I'm getting mired in this morass.

Katie:
*(snip)*
> Everyone's been debating whether what the twins did was right or 
wrong...well, of course it is never good to bully people...unless 
they have it coming. 

Ceridwen:
So, if someone evilly rats out my kids, for doing drugs, say, or 
stealing, it's all right for my kids to go and beat them up because 
they have it coming?  Is this the ultimate message of the books?

Katie:
As I see it, that was KARMA. Pure and simple. 

Ceridwen:
So, the twins are the agents of Karma?  People get touchy about the 
possibilities that Harry might have to kill LV, or sacrifice himself, 
in the next book.  What sort of message will this send to children? 
is the usual question.  Kids know that Harry is the Hero, the 
Superman of the series.  He's 'faster than a speeding bullet, more 
powerful than a locomotive...', he's above our level since he's had a 
Destiny ever since LV killed his parents, failed to kill him, 
and 'marked him as his equal'.  While he is the protagonist and the 
main POV character, he is not Like Us.  Kids know they can't tie a 
towel to their necks and fly; kids know they don't have a Fated 
Destiny like Harry.  Kids aren't dumb.

The twins, Hermione, Ron, etc. are Like Us.  What they do is what 
Everyman does, and can do.  Should they be allowed to swell the 
tongues of unsuspecting weaker kids because they 'have it coming'?  
And, who decides who 'has it coming'?  Isn't that the reason we all 
think the MoM was wrong when it incarcerated Sirius without a trial?  
Is this the ultimate message of the books?

Katie:
As was Hagrid giving Dudley the pig's tail in PS/SS, and all the 
other bad things that happen to bad people. I don't think that the 
twins' behavior is at all abnormal for teenage boys, and who says 
good people have to be perfect all the time? Harry certainly does his 
share of rule-breaking and not-so-nice things...and I think he's a 
good person.

Ceridwen:
So it is all right to harm the child or younger sib of the person 
we're mad at?  It's all right for my kids to hurt the younger brother 
of the guy who offended them?

Sure, the twins act like normal teenage boys.  That's why normal 
teenage boys die in car accidents for going too fast, or get beat up 
by their peers - because they deserve it, right?  In fact, the car 
accident would be more Karmic than a bunch of other teens, tired of 
someone imposing their own ideas of morality, grabbing that person 
into an alley, because the car accident would be willed by The 
(Impartial) Universe, not through flawed human agent.

And, yes, Harry does his share of rule-breaking.  At times, it seems 
as if he's the Doomed Child.  A friend's younger sister had Juvenile 
Diabetes at a time when the life expectancy for a child with that 
condition was no older than 18.  Their parents allowed the ailing 
child to get away with murder, almost literally.  After all, 
allowances should be made for a child who will not live past the age 
of 18, right?  And, what does it matter that the child won't learn 
how to live in polite society, the ultimate goal of instructing 
children?  That child will never make a place for itself in society, 
will it?

Medical advances are amazing.  My friend's sister is still around, 
and nearing 50.  She's a bitter, crotchety old thing, not fit for 
human company when she throws a pout.  Pouts are heartbreaking on a 
child slated to die; on a forty-something woman, they're contemptable.

Katie:
Look, my point is this, I guess. Whose side are we all on? 

Ceridwen:
The Hero's.  Of course.  Which is why a lot of us want to see Heroic 
Deeds, not petty sniping, from Our Hero.  We want to see him win, we 
want to see the Triumph of Good Over Evil, we want to see the end of 
the Hero's Journey, which means making mistakes and learning from 
them - not learning that the Hero can get away with things, but that 
the Hero learns from his mistakes and becomes worthy of the 
label 'Hero'.  The last thing I want to find out is that I was 
rooting for just another petty, spiteful whelp who Vanquishes Teh 
Eeevil, then curls up into a ball and complains until someone coaxes 
him into a good mood.

Katie:
I mean, we've been debating the twins' behavior, Hermione's behavior
(in other threads), and even Dumbledore's behavior! I personally 
don't want to shred my protagonists to death. I love Harry, Hermione, 
DD, the Weasleys, Lupin, and all the others on *my* side. I do not 
always *approve* of their behavior...especially when Hermione 
attacked Ron with the birds in HBP...but I always approve of their 
overall mission and I believe their hearts and souls are deeply good.

Ceridwen:
I do want to 'shred my protagonists to death' if that means holding 
them to a Higher Standard.  Superman 'came to earth with powers and 
abilities far beyond those of Mortal Man...'  and I expect Superman 
to use those powers wisely.  I also expect the twins, Hermione, Ron, 
Harry, Dumbledore, etc., to use their powers wisely as well.  And to 
that end, I would rather see them making minor mistakes which leave 
them alive but learning from their lessons - a ticket for speeding, 
perhaps - rather than making much larger mistakes and ending up dead -
 from being killed in an accident due to speeding, for instance.  I 
am desperate for Our Hero to learn the lessons he needs to learn, not 
because of the outcome for the Wizarding World, but for the outcome 
for Our Hero.  I am desperate for my children to learn their life 
lessons, not because I insist that they learn them, but because 
learning them is the heart of living in society with other people.

Katie, who loves everyone in HP except the Slytherins, the DE's, and 
the Dursleys...and sometimes the MoM.

Ceridwen, who hates a few people for Doing Her Wrong, but still 
hasn't taken them into the woods and shot their kneecaps off.