DD and Draco's murder attempts WAS: Draco and Harry

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 153329

Alla:
<SNIP>
> > I mean, I am still not sure that DD knew all of Draco's 
activities, 
> > but if he did, oh my... That is beyond reckless IMO.
> > 
> > I wonder how he would have felt if Katie and Ron WOULD have 
died. 
> > Could he have looked Katy's parents and Arthur and Molly in the 
eyes 
> > with clear conscience and told him. You know, I really wanted to 
> > save Draco that is why in the process I let your children die.
> 
> Pippin:
> He'd have said Katie and Ron were tragic casualties of war. It
> was clear to Dumbledore that Draco was behind the attempts, but
> that can only have been from Snape's information. Snape was hardly
> in a position to accuse -- or are you suggesting that Draco should
> have been accused without any evidence other than Harry's 
suspicions,
> which he couldn't even get Ron and Hermione to take seriously?
> 
> And you think Sirius was unfairly accused, with a whole street
> full of eyewitnesses! 

Alla:

Um, I am afraid I really don't follow you. The crux of the matter as 
I see it is whether DD knew of Draco's activities or not and how 
much he knew and if he knew everything than why he did not act upon 
it.

I am afraid that in this scenario Katy and Ron would not have been 
the tragic casualties of war, but tragic victims of DD recklessness 
or DD desire to save one student while putting the hundreds of lives 
in danger. IMO of course.

I mean, who cares HOW Dumbledore knew of Draco's activities IF he 
knew for sure ( I am not sure, mind you) that Draco is up to 
committing murders. IF DD has the genuine information whether from 
Snape or not, doesn't he have an obligation as the Headmaster of 
Hogwarts to act upon it.

But here I of course run in the "wearing too many hats' Dumbledore 
again. I absolutely think that in very many situations Dumbledore's 
duties as Headmaster and Leader of Order of Phoenix contradict and 
this is IMO one of them.

If one postulates DD's desire as Leader of the Order to protect 
Snape ( that is if he is DD!M of course, which I highly doubt), sure 
I understand his reluctance to act upon Snape's information.

BUT as I said as Headmaster of Hogwarts, IMO DD first and foremost 
obligation is not to put his students' lifes in danger OR at least 
try to minimise it, since to DD's credit he is not the one who 
started this war.

Oh, and what Sirius has to do with it? As you said it yourself, 
Sirius was UNFAIRLY accused. Accusations towards Draco would have 
been fair and just. If Snape could not have been a witness , DD 
should have transferred Draco somewhere, restrained him SOMEHOW, NOT 
giving him free reign in Hogwarts, especially after first strike IMO.


Pippin:
> Dumbledore did the best he could to prevent any attacks, but the
> trouble with hare-brained attacks is that they are, well, hare-
brained.
> The necklace would never have gotten past the Dark detectors and
> secrecy sensors -- Katie was only harmed because the package 
> tore before she got to Hogwarts. Having Rosmerta poison a bottle of
> oak matured mead  in case someone was planning to give it to 
> Dumbledore was even dumber. 


Alla:

So, what did he do to prevent attacks? Attacks WERE stupid, but I 
think that DD had no right to take another chance of another stupid 
attack to follow.

One near-miss should have been enough, IMO.

Pippin: 
> I don't see how Dumbledore could have anticipated that, anymore 
> than he could have anticipated that three of his students would 
> turn themselves into animagi and run through Hogsmeade with 
> a werewolf in tow -- or that one of them would tell another 
student 
> how to enter the werewolf's enclosure. 

Alla:

Oh, so DD did not know about the attacks? You see, I would much much 
prefer he would not, but it seems that people argue that he knew 
something, but how much exactly?


Pippin: 
> Do you think he'd have had to look Mr. and Mrs. Snape in the eye
> and tell them their son was dead because Dumbledore thought
> werewolves should be mainstreamed?

Alla:

Since I think that we lack lots of information about that night, I 
cannot make the parallel at all.


Pippin: 
> Draco does seem to have taken Snape's warning to heart, because 
> there are no more hb attempts after the first two, both of which 
> were planned before Christmas.

Alla:

That was kind of Draco :) Did DD had a  right to take a chance that 
Draco indeed would take that to heart or decides to strike one more 
time?

> 
> Alla:
> > As to Aslan, Aslan sacrificed himself and himself only IMO. That 
was 
> > his choice to make. Dumbledore's choices on the other hand often 
> > puzzle me a great deal :)
> > 
> 
> Pippin:
> Dumbledore had as much right to sacrifice himself for Draco and
> Snape as Lily did to give her life for Harry. She was a powerful
> witch and her loss would have been a great blow to the Order if
> the war had continued. She couldn't know that Voldemort would be 
> vanquished or that Harry would grow up to be a hero even greater
> than she. Yet she was willing to die for the sake of an unproven 
child.

Alla:

Undoubtebly, Dumbledore has that right to sacrifice himself, but 
that is where I end his right to sacrifice. I don't see him having a 
right to sacrifice other lives on the off-topic chance that maybe 
Draco will see the light, possibly.

Katie and Ron dying would not even be commander sending willing 
troops to battle, knowing that casualties will follow.

That would be I am not even sure how to describe it. IMO of course.

That is why I tend to think that DD did not know much if anything Of 
Draco's activities, because I don't see him as someone who would be 
stupid enough to sacrifice children's lifes, especially if it could 
be avoided.

That will of course lead into Snape not telling DD much about 
Draco's activities in the first place. :)


> Ginger:
> 
> Maybe this will put your mind at a bit of ease, Alla.

Alla:

Heeeee. That's sweet of you :)

Ginger: 
> Let's look at the chronology.  At the beginning of the year, Draco 
> comes to school with the intent to kill DD.
> 
> Whether or not DD knows this is up for grabs, but just for now, 
let's 
> say he does.  (If he didn't, we couldn't expect him to do anything 
> anyway, now, could we?)

Alla:

Oh, sure, sure of course. If he did not know, Dumbledore is off the 
hook for recklessness :)

Ginger:
> So it's not that DD did nothing, let Katie get poisoned in 
October, 
> still did nothing, and let Ron get poisoned in March; it's that 
Draco 
> had the presence of mind to have a plan A and a plan B.  One was 
> intended to happen in October, and the mead was intended to strike 
at 
> Christmas.  After whenever it was that Sluggy brought in the mead, 
> Draco doesn't attempt to bring anything into the castle via any 
route 
> other than the vanishing cabinets, which DD certainly didn't know 
> about.  
<SNIP>

Alla:

Hmmm,  just to refresh my memory ( honestly, I am feeling that I 
started to forget the most embarassing things - the reread is in 
order :)), could you refer me to Slugghorn bringing in the mead.

I guess I have the same question as Hagrid asked.

Oh, and about vanishing cabinets - I guess I am again not sure how 
far the argument goes as to extent of DD knowledge about Draco.

If he knew SOME things, but not everything, I sort of understand, 
although still expect him to guess that the person who tried killing 
once will likely do it again, but if DD knew everything, that's 
worse in my book.

 
JMO,

Alla