Horcrux: was Baptism/Christianity in HP

[a_svirn]

No: HPFGUIDX 153691

> Leslie41:
> Well, if you're going to come up with a one-sentence description 
of 
> the nature of Christ's purpose, I would say that's short sighted.  
> And if you think you're actually capable of coming up with a one-
> sentence description of the nature of Christ's purpose, I would 
> assume that you are a) not a Christian, or b) a Christian with an 
> ego the size of Montana.  

a_svirn:
You mean I have a choice? That's magnanimous of you. 

> Leslie41: 
> As for the noted authorities, I consider the people on this board 
to 
> be intelligent folks who can generally be counted on to look up 
> authors if they want further information.  The stuff I cited about 
> Julian and Spenser is factual, not conjectural.  He wrote 
allegory.  
> She saw Christ as a mother.  Personally, I didn't feel any further 
> explication was needed, or wanted. 

a_svirn:
Would you believe it? Even after your passionate diatribe I am still 
in the dark where the significance of names and baptism in the Harry 
Potter books is concerned. I implore you show me some Christian 
mercy (however undeserved) and explain it to me so that even I with 
my less than average intelligence would understand. You said that 
you – unlike Spenser – are not into allegories. (Personally, I don't 
see why bring up Spenser at all, if you don't like his work and it's 
not conductive to the present discussion.) Very well, if the names 
of HP characters have no allegorical meaning, then, why you insist 
on the biblical parallels? 

> Leslie41:  
> As for it being a shield, I said explicitly it that baptism itself 
> was not a shield.  I spoke of it initially as "spiritual 
> protection," but I see the sacrifice of Lily and Voldemort's 
failed 
> killing curse as part and parcel of the same experience.  

a_svirn:
Let me see
 Lily's sacrifice and Harry's baptism are kind of 
complimentary? Part of the same spiritual experience? Wow!  Now I 
know why all the others failed to repel AKs! You'd need someone to 
sacrifice their life for baptism to work as spiritual protection. 
Alternatively sacrifice without baptism wouldn't work at all, since 
they come in one package. According to your logic if Voldemort had 
managed to track the Potters down before Harry had been baptised all 
Lilly's love as well as her sacrifice would have been in vain. 

> Leslie41:
> I think in the end that the location of the scar reminds us of 
> baptism, that Harry was himself baptized.  In a metaphorical way, 
> not necessarily in a precise "Harry is protected by baptism" kind 
of 
> way, we are reminded that the evil of Voldemort will always lose, 
> will always be repelled in the end by the ultimate good.  Evil in 
> the end harms itself.

a_svirn:
Then why fight it at all? Let it harm itself. Besides 
your "metaphorical kind of way" is too general by far. If you keep 
expanding meaning of any word it will cease to mean anything at all 
in the end. 

> Leslie41:
> The basic fact that I keep coming back to is that his parents 
> thought Harry's baptism extremely important. 

a_svirn:
We don't know it. There is no canon to support this statement. 

> Leslie41:
 Rowling herself said 
> that it was probably a hurried sort of affair, with just the 
family 
> involved.  Obviously, having their son Christened was extremely 
> important to them.  

a_svirn:
And how is that obvious? If it was so hurried an affair it may 
equally mean that it wasn't of the first importance. 

> Leslie41:
And the Christening service itself, the 
> baptismal service, is a deeply spiritual experience in which all 
are 
> required to renew their baptismal vows.  The godfather must be a 
> baptized Christian himself as well.
> 
> Pardon me for thinking that yes, that's important.  You are free 
to 
> think it's entirely meaningless.  But it's in there.  Harry was 
> baptized.  Sirius was a Christian and so were his parents, or else 
> they would not have been allowed to have their child baptized.
> 
> If you want to ignore those canonical facts, that's fine.  But 
> they're there.  I didn't pull them out of the air, or anywhere 
> else.   
>  

a_svirn:
And that exactly what makes me wonder whether Christianity is really 
part of wizarding life. Mr and Mrs Black with their marked 
predilection for dark magic – Christians? It boggles the mind. I 
would imagine they would be struck by lightening as soon as they'd 
cross any church's threshold. 

> Leslie41:
> No.  Your assertion that Harry's destiny is set in stone by his 
> baptismal affirmation of his name shows that you misunderstand the 
> nature of baptism.  Being baptized is kind of like a 
promise...it's 
> not the end but the beginning.  It's no assurance that one is 
going 
> to be able to share in the eternal kingdom.  Harry must evolve out 
> of that designation as destroyer and come to defeat Voldemort 
> through love.

a_svirn:
Dear me. You know, I did not assert anything of the kind.  Don't put 
words into my mouth, please. It was *you* who harped about names and 
their meanings. And while I naturally relieved that Harry's 
destiny "doesn't set in stone by his baptismal affirmation" I still 
don't understand why on earth he was "designated as a destroyer". 

> Leslie41:
> Do you doubt that "crux" means "cross"?    

a_svirn:
I don't. It was your neologism *whorecrosses* that sounds like 
rubbish to me, not your translation of *crux*. 

 
> > > Leslie41:
> > >In the bible whores are associated with idolatry and 
> > > faithlessness to god.  
> > 
> > a_svirn:
> > Or really?  And what about that female sinner that anointed ?
> > Christ's feet? And even if the Whore of Babylon can be said to 
> > have been faithless to God I still don't see what whores in the 
> > Bible an out of it have to do with immortality.
> 
> Leslie41:
> Selling one's body for money is thought by most to be 
> immoral.  "Whoring" also has another connotation, also negative (I 
> know of no positive one).  We speak of people who have "sold their 
> souls" so to speak as "whores".  It doesn't always have a sexual 
> connotation. 
> 
>
a_svirn:
While I allow that *whoring* and *whoredom* in biblical use have 
connotation of idolatry and unfaithfulness to the true God, the 
interpretation of "selling one's soul" is something you made up. And 
since whores have nothing to do with immortality, and Voldemort 
isn't into idolatry I still don't think much of your interpretation.