Werewolf Mystery

[lanval1015]

No: HPFGUIDX 153778

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" 
<quigonginger at ...> wrote:
been 

> Ginger:

> This is only a guess, but I'd say there are werewolves, and there 
are 
> werewolves.
> 
> Lupin is a good type who really doesn't want to hurt, but is 
overcome 
> by his illness.  GF is the bad kind who hurts because he can.


Lanval:
Agreed. Lupin's description of the other werewolves also supports the 
theory of some measure of choice for werewolves. By distancing 
themselves from LV or Greyback, by insisting on, and arranging for, 
safety precautions for themselves, werewolves can choose to remain 
members of Wizarding society (or Muggle society! Another problem. How 
many werewolves are Muggles?) Which would of course fit the overall 
theme of the series -- choice being of the essence.


> Ginger: 
> I am guessing that GF goes out and hunts for the kill when it 
pleases 
> him, so he gets the urges out of his system enough to be able to 
plan 
> an attack for the purpose of infecting a new victim.
> 
> Lupin, OTOH, has no desire to hurt and will only do so if he 
actually 
> loses control, in which case, there is no stopping him.  Given his 
> animosity towards Snape when in normal form, he might well lose 
> control when effected by his transformation, in which case, Snape 
was 
> truly in danger, and his debt to James was an actual life debt.


Lanval:
Interesting point. Some would argue, however, that Lupin never felt 
any great animosity toward Snape as a teenager. 

Your theory would also mean that a werewolf is capable of recognizing 
people, and might, for instance, choose to attack or not. I suppose 
it all comes down to how much rational thought remains in a 
werewolf's mind. 

> 
> Ginger:
> I see Lupin as being like Alex.  He knows what he is capable of, 
but 
> doesn't want to do it.  Alex loses control because of depths of his 
> hunger and because of his nature.  Lupin in werewolf form would be 
at 
> that point of loss of control.  No matter how good his intentions 
> are, he is still a werewolf.  Hence his exile in the SS and his 
> potion in PoA.

Lanval:
True. But in Alex's case, it would be a slower and gradually 
worsening process, fueled by hunger, which brings out his true 
nature. In a HP werewolf, the change would be immediate and extreme, 
as we witness in PoA. The nature brings on the hunger, as it were. 
Since we haven't witnessed too many werewolves in action, I wonder if 
a werewolf's hunger/aggression is diminished after the first victim, 
or would he go for seconds, if available? 


> Ginger: 
> I would also compare this to a real life instance of a cat playing 
> with a mouse or bug before it eats it.  Now in real life, the cat 
> isn't being sadisitic or evil, it's just its nature.


Lanval:
Indeed. I love my cats to death, and I fancy them to be mildly 
attached to me, but nonetheless I'm always very grateful that I'm not 
three inches tall...



> Ginger: 
> GF, OTOH, has a dual nature.  The human side is capable of reason 
and 
> planning, and the werewolf side is out for a feed.  My guess is 
that 
> he uses his human side to plan the attack, and that part of the 
plan 
> is that he feeds at will before any attacks he plans for infection 
so 
> he is not so out of control that he eats the victim.  

Lanval:
What do you suggest he eats, though -- not people, certainly? Meat? 
Would a belly-full of 'normal' food make his werewolf form less 
likely to attack? It's a possibility.



> Pippin:
> I think the werewolves are under no magical compulsion to eat 
people,
> but will eat people or anything else if they happen to be hungry. 
In PoA,
> Hagrid worries that Lupin might have attacked Buckbeak, "but Lupin
> says he never ate anythin' last night." (ch 22)


Lanval:

I'd forgotten about that. It adds another difficulty, though: Lupin 
states in PoA that werewolves are a danger _only_ to humans. Which is 
supported fully in canon. Wormtail especially, and even Prongs, would 
never have had peace of mind while roaming with Wolf!Lupin, much less 
had any fun, if there had been reason for them to fear the wolf's 
teeth and claws. 

Shouldn't Hagrid know this??? I've come to take his remarks with 
several grains of salt, especially when the Gryffindor/Slytherin 
rivalry creeps into play, but Magical Beasts is sort of his field of 
expertise, no?


> Pippin:
> Lupin says in HBP that his people steal, and sometimes kill, to 
eat. I
> thought he was talking about victims accidentally killed in the 
course
> of a robbery, but it's also possible that starving werewolves "get
> carried away" not by magic but by hunger. 

Lanval:

True. But I think we need to differentiate between Wolf!Hunger and 
Human!Hunger. Like you, I took Lupin's comment to mean that these 
outlaw werewolves, who have no way of supporting themselves, have to 
resort to stealing, and perhaps killing, in _human_ form to survive. 
As in armed robbery. Which of course again brings up the question of 
how many Muggles are among these werewolves. Not that it appears to 
matter much, if Wizard werewolves are never magically trained. Still, 
with some self-training and varying degrees of natural talent, they 
might be able to secure food in relatively harmless (if still 
illegal) ways.

There is naturally the possibility, as you suggest, that killing & 
gorging once a month might just keep them alive from one full moon to 
the next...and that killing and feeding takes priority over 
the 'real' aim of creating more werewoves. Greyback seems to be able 
to do both very well. *shudders with distaste*


> Pippin:
> Since Snape believes that Lupin was in on the "joke" and its purpose
> was to kill him, he could assume  that Lupin made sure to be 
> hungry that night. 

Lanval:
It only accounts for Snape's view, though. But DD seems equally 
convinced that Snape's life was in great danger, and he neither 
believes that Lupin was 'in on the joke', (which is really just a 
figment of Snape's imagination), nor does he believe that it was a 
plot by the Marauders to kill Snape. So malice/planning on Lupin's 
part makes little sense to me.


> Pippin:
> There is another alternative. We don't know how soon the first bite 
> takes effect. It doesn't sound as though a bitten person transforms 
> immediately. Perhaps wizards consider the honorable thing to do if 
> bitten by a werewolf is to fight it to the death. Dumbledore is 
> certainly very clear that Snape was in peril of his life. 
> 

Lanval:
No, I don't think that newly attacked people transform immediately 
either. My guess is it happens at the next full moon.

The "death before becoming a werewolf" being an honorable thing is a 
fascinating idea, though. I would, however, have expected Ron or 
Hermione to mention this, once the subject of how people become 
victims comes up. Greyback's proclivity for children is known, so is 
the age of one his victims -- this would have been a perfect time to 
bring up the fact that an adult would be expected to fight to the 
death. But what, again, of Muggles being attacked?

And even if HP werewolves only attack fellow Wizards, we have a 
problem... what if the adult victim indeed fights to the death, and 
kills the werewolf, but does not entirely escape injury (a mere 
scratch would do)? Is the victim then expected to do take the 
honorable thing to the logical next level, and commit suicide?


Pippin:
> Lupin suffers when transformed from the urge to bite and scratch
> himself if he is deprived of humans. The potion alleviates this
> and allows him to keep his human mind. Of course we should
> not forget that human minds are  capable of evil to a far greater
> extent than any wolf :)
> 
Lanval:

You don't think the transformation itself is painful then? This would 
also go against what I've seen and read about werewolves in films and 
books... which is admittedly not a whole lot. :)


Lanval, who's intrigued by the responses so far, but still hasn't 
found an answer as to whether we're dealing with a contradiction 
within the text, or whether the two different viewpoints of a) 
Werewolves as Killers, and b) Werewolves as Occasionally Lethal 
Werewolf-Makers can be reconciled