Why we're sure that Snape is Evil

[juli17 at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 153882

 


chrusotoxos wrote:
<SNIP>
> 8. Now, if we accept all  this, what good is there in forgiving a 
> good man who made a mistake?  We're all capable of that: as Jesus 
> said, we must instead pray for our  enemies, because the sick man 
> needs the doctor, not the healthy  one

Julie:
I don't think I'd classify Snape's actions as mistakes. As others 
have pointed out, Snape had to know Voldemort *could* use the
prophecy information as a reason to kill someone(s). He no doubt
also did some unsavory things as a DE, even if he stopped short
of doing the actual torture or killing of Voldemort's enemies. Snape
didn't make mistakes, he did bad things, all the while knowing he
was doing bad things. Whatever made him regret those actions 
and *change* from a bad person to a good person (at least in 
intent, and if we assume DDM), it doesn't undo that he was once 
"bad" by choice, not a good man making a mistake. 
 
Lupinlore wrote:
I think you are onto something very important  here.  Most versions 
of DDM!Snape fail at this point, because it simply  doesn't play into 
a forgiveness and redemption theme very well.

In  most (but not all) versions of DDM!Snape, Snape has been on the 
good side  all along.  He has not done anything really bad, or if he 
did it was  because he made a mistake and has been atoning for it.  
Therefore, the  confrontation with Harry would unfold as Snape 
putting forth his case and  Harry reluctantly accepting that "OK, you 
are a mean SOB but I've been wrong  about you and I'm willing to work 
with you."


Julie:
I think he did do bad things. Perhaps even *really* bad things. If he
is DDM then he regrets them, and he's had an honest change of 
heart. But that doesn't erase the bad things he's done, even while
he's attempting to atone for them. I also think it's a fairly  unpopular
version of DDM!Snape where he was on the good side all along.
Most DDM!Snape supporters here think Snape was on Voldemort's
side intially, then saw the error of his ways and switched to DDs
side. (That's my impression anyway.)
 
Lupinlore wrote:
Okay, but where does forgiveness come in, particularly  of the 
Christian type being discussed?  Where is the particular  Christian 
message in admitting that you have been wrong about someone's  
motivations?  A pagan Roman would recognize that virtue quite  
easily.  It isn't forgiveness, it's reason and practical logic.   
Where is the particular Christian foregivness in saying "You were 
wrong  to betray my parents, but I recognize that you've been atoning 
for  it?"  Once again, that is something any virtuous Greek or Roman 
or  Egyptian or Sumerian or Celtic or Slavic or Norse or Teutonic 
pagan could  say in exactly the same words.
 
Julie:
I don't see the conflict. Where in Christianity does it say  acceptance
of someone's regret for a previous action and forgiving that person  for
committing that previous bad action in the first place are mutually
exclusive? 

Lupinlore:
I guess, if you are bound and determined for Snape to be  a suffering 
and misunderstood hero, you could argue that the forgiveness  would 
be Snape's, in forgiving Harry for being so unfair to him and  
misunderstanding him.  I wouldn't put two cents on it, but you could  
say that.

Rather, the forgivness theme means the power of forgiveness for both  
the one who forgives and the one who is forgiven.  And in order to  
experience the power of forgiveness, you have to be in the wrong.   
Not a suffering and misunderstood hero, not a double agent doing the  
will of good, not someone who made an honest mistake and has been  
atoning for it -- you have to have done something wrong from which 
you  need to be redeemed.  You need to accept forgivness from someone 
who  has every right to despise you -- NOT put forth a coherent case 
that you are  a good but misunderstood person who has made mistakes 
but been atoning for  your sins and working for the cause of 
righteousness all along.


Julie:
Snape didn't make an honest mistake. He did bad things. He did 
something(s) wrong for which he needs to be redeemed. So your
main premise is false, IMO. 
 
As for accepting forgiveness, that is NOT a necessary part of 
part of forgiving. Harry can forgive Snape for his own reasons, and
for his own emotional health (not forgiving eats at the soul), but
whether Snape accepts that forgiveness or not has no bearing on
the good Harry (or anyone) receives by forgiving. To repeat,  Harry
needs to forgive for *himself*, for *his* own good, not for Snape's.
And since the books are about Harry, not about Snape, whether
Snape accepts that forgiveness is also not important to the  story.
(It is important to many fans, yes, but not to the story!)
 
 
 
 
Julie 
 
 
 
 
 







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