Baptism and JKR's views (was: Homosexuality in HP Series)

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 153890

Leslie41:
> > And the fact that she's a member of the Church of Scotland (as 
> > opposed to the Catholic Church or Southern Baptist, for example) 
> > actually means she's a member of a church that is quite open 
> > minded when it comes to homosexuals and homosexual behavior, and 
> > even homosexual marriages and clergy.

Isobel responded:
> Somebody else in this thread stated that JKR was an Anglican. The 
> Church of Scotland is not Anglican, it is a Presbyterian church and 
> quite separate in its theology from the Church of England. Both are 
> the official, established churches in their own country but they 
> are not the same church. The Church of Scotland is not part of the 
> Anglician communion. The Anglican/Epsicopalian church in Scotland 
> is the Scottish Episcopal Church.
>
> Admittedly there is much too-ing and fro-ing between the 
> established churches as far as congregations are concerned (for 
> example the Queen, heand of the Church of England and a 
> confirmed Anglican, worships at Church of Scotland kirks when in 
> Scotland) but there are sharp differences in practices between the 
> two churches.

SSSusan butts in:
I've been meaning to get back to this issue as well, so I thank you, 
Isobel, for reminding me that I hadn't yet done so.  You are right to 
point out that the Anglican/Episcopalian Church is not the same as 
the Church of Scotland/Presbyterian Church.

The issue I was more interested in was baptism, however.


Leslie wrote:
> And sure, many people kind of ignore their roles as godparents, but 
> when you go back to the actual ceremony of baptism (in the Anglican 
> church), the godparent has to renounce the devil, acknowledge 
> Christ as savior, etc. etc. etc.
> 
> Those who are not Christians are not asked to be godparents, no 
> matter how close the tie may be, because they either are not 
> baptized, or they cannot claim Christ as savior, or both.
> <snip> 
 but anyone who's ever been to a baptism in the Anglican 
> church knows that it's pretty serious stuff.
<snip>
> And the Christening service itself, the baptismal service, is a 
> deeply spiritual experience in which all are required to renew 
> their baptismal vows. The godfather must be a baptized Christian 
> himself as well.
> 
> Pardon me for thinking that yes, that's important. You are free to 
> think it's entirely meaningless. But it's in there. Harry was 
> baptized. Sirius was a Christian and so were his parents, or else
> they would not have been allowed to have their child baptized.
>
> Your assertion that Harry's destiny is set in stone by his 
> baptismal affirmation of his name shows that you misunderstand the 
> nature of baptism. Being baptized is kind of like a promise...it's 
> not the end but the beginning. It's no assurance that one is going 
> to be able to share in the eternal kingdom. Harry must evolve out 
> of that designation as destroyer and come to defeat Voldemort 
> through love.

SSSusan:
I think it is important, again, to note that JKR is a member of the 
Church of Scotland, not the Anglican Church.  I am not saying that 
the baptismal covenant *is* totally different; I'm merely saying that 
I'm not sure we can take what baptism represents in the Anglican 
Church and say with certainty that this is what JKR meant.  

When I visited the Church of Scotland's website 
[http://www.churchofscotland.org.uk/worship/wplife.htm ], this was 
what it had to say about baptism:

>>> Baptism is one of the two sacraments recognised by the Church of 
Scotland, the other being the Sacrament of Holy Communion. In the 
case of infant baptism the Church expects at least one parent or 
other close family member either to be a member of the Church or 
willing to become a member. In the baptismal service those 
appropriate adults profess their own faith and promise to give the 
child a Christian upbringing. In the case of adult baptism the person 
himself or herself makes the appropriate promises. Baptism is 
normally administered at Sunday worship in front of the congregation. 
This emphasises the nature of the sacrament as incorporation into the 
body of Christ and the life of the Church. There is a little more 
flexibility in the case of genuine emergencies, normally in a 
hospital situation. <<<

I am sure there are more details available to those who know where to 
look, as well.  "Those appropriate adults" are to "profess their own 
faith," it does say.  Does that include godparents?  Probably, though 
it's not stated outright.  So this would be the position of the 
*church.*

Even though I agree it's important to note that the CoS and the 
Anglican Church are not the same thing, I also think it's very 
important to recognize that simply because JKR is a *member* of a 
particular church, it does not mean that we know with certainty what 
HER particular beliefs are.  I'm an Episcopalian myself, but that 
doesn't mean I agree with every word in the Book of Common Prayer.  
(Is there any person who believes *every* tenet, position and word in 
his/her church's documents, articles of faith or cathechism?  I 
wonder.)  I've got a healthy respect for the things the Quaker Church 
teaches, as well, for instance.  What baptism or communion or the 
trinity means to *me* might not perfectly match what my church's 
official position is.  And if I were to mention a sacrament or rite, 
as a writer, I do not think it would be safe for the reader to assume 
precisely what I meant if I didn't STATE what I meant, you know?

I think we need to be careful in placing too much emphasis on what 
JKR "must" have meant when she included information about Harry's 
christening (or her views on homosexuality, for that matter) if we're 
basing that emphasis solely on her *membership* in a particular 
church.  What would make it definitive or *canon* to me would be 
JKR's direct statement on one of those issues.  She did mention a 
christening.  She also mentioned very few details about that 
christening.  I don't know that we can extrapolate particulars about 
its meaning to her or to the HP story from so little information.

Leslie:
> I would agree with you if Rowling weren't a professed Christian, 
> but she is, most definitely.

SSSusan:
Yes, she is a professed Christian.  This is on record.  What we don't 
know is what *particular* Christian beliefs she ascribes to, because 
she has been very quiet about that in the many interviews I have 
read/listened to, and she has been TOTALLY quiet about that in the 
books themselves.

Until/Unless JKR steps forth with some specific remarks about her 
views on christening or baptism, or (better yet) about Harry's 
christening, then I'm pretty much with Magpie & Geoff.

Magpie:
> The Christening is very important for plot purposes to give Harry 
> some tie to Sirius, which seems like the important part--but it is 
> a Christening, not a naming ceremony or a made-up wizarding ritual.

Geoff:
> I accept that, since Sirius is confirmed as his godfather not only 
> by himself but by Cornelius Fudge, Harry was obviously baptised in 
> whatever form was considered appropriate by James and Lily.
> 
> However, I am inclined to think that this was a literary device 
> used by JKR to strengthen the bond between Harry and Sirius. Had 
> Sirius only been a friend to his parents, Harry might not have set 
> much store by a suggestion that they live together and would not 
> perhaps have been so devastated when Sirius was killed; it is the 
> fact that his parents had placed this responsibility in his hands 
> that created the closeness that made Sirius the nearest thing he 
> had to a real, loving family member.

SSSusan:
I'm inclined to think this is as far as we can go at this point.  
Speculating, fine.  Theorizing, fine.  But statements concerning the 
meaning of an event such as Harry's christening just can't, at this 
point and in my opinion, be made with certainty.

Siriusly Snapey Susan