[HPforGrownups] Choice and Essentialism (was:Re: Understanding Snape)

[elfundeb]

No: HPFGUIDX 153928

>
>   Betsy Hp:
> > > Here's the text under discussion:
> > > "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more
> > > than our abilities." [SS paperback p.333]
> > > I don't think Dumbledore was trying to say that people are who
> > > they are, and we can merely discover their true character by
> > > looking at their choices.
>
> > >>Alla:
> > > I think that is exactly what he says here. I mean, why would not
> > > he say then - our choices MAKE us who we are.
>

Debbie:
I always thought the debates over predestination vs. free will were rather
pointless because, from our own perspective, we always have free will.  "Who
we are" at age 11 is not necessarily who we are at age 18, or 50, or 150.
Who we become depends on our choices.

I have probably come full circle by now in the interpretation of that
quote.  I first placed JKR in the free-will camp, then I shifted over to
Alla's view, but now I have swung back to the free-will side.  And I think
the strongest evidence of that is the theme of redemption.

   Betsy Hp provided some good examples:
> James had a lot of charm, leadership skills, magical skills and
> creativity. For a while he *chose* to use those skills to torment
> people he didn't like. But at some point he came to a cross-roads
> and chose to go in a different direction. His abilities remained,
> but he chose to use those abilities in a different way.
>
> Debbie:
>
And take Snape, for example.  Snape made undeniably bad choices in his
youth.  He hung out with the wrong crowd.  He demonstrated a knowledge of
too many curses.  And, of course, he joined the Death Eaters.  But we are
made to understand that he left the Death Eaters, too.  Even if Snape is not
DDM!, the possibility of redemption is always present.  Dumbledore treated
Snape as a Good Guy, illustrating that the door to redemption is always
open.  Thus, our choices don't tar and feather us with permanent labels.

   > >>Alla:
> > Of course choice is important, it is just I think that in
> > Potterverse it is an opportunity for character to show who they
> > are, not exactly decide who they are.
>

Debbie:
Choice is also an opportunity for a person or character to show what they
can become.  JKR's characters are not unchangeable cartoon cutouts.  Why
would Dumbledore waste his last moments persuading Draco to change his mind
if his attempts to kill him irrefutably showed Draco's character?  Why would
he give out those second chances that Hagrid is so grateful for?

And further evidence that *choice* is important in and of itself:  Imperius,
which takes away the victim's freedom of choice, is an Unforgivable Curse.


> > >>Alla:
> > Are you sure though that Dumbledore's primary concern is to give
> > characters free choices or is his mainly concern is to try to
> > change of who they are, sort of, their beliefs, etc?
>

Debbie:
There is no question that JKR sees Dumbledore as a moral center of the
series (I acknowledge that some readers disagree with JKR here).
Dumbledore is motivated to encourage others to join the *good* side, hence
his speech to Draco on the Tower.  However, any genuine conversion must be
prompted by the character's own decision, i.e. free will. He does not tell
Harry anything in PS/SS -- the temptation is there but it is Harry who
decides to go through the trapdoor by himself.

> >>a_svirn:
> Because he thought that our choices are more important than our
> characters. Example: James might have been a bully, but he chose
> the Light side – that makes him a good guy. Marietta Edgecombe is
> a "wonderful person" according to Cho, yet she made a "a mistake"
> as Cho termed it. That makes her a sneak.

Debbie:
Ah, Marietta.  I find it very discomforting to attempt to divide people into
"good" and "bad" based on a single choice.  Even Sirius (not one of my
favorite characters) reminded Harry that the world is not divided into good
people and Death Eaters.  Many good people are not in the Order.  Indeed,
many of these good people allowed Voldemort to triumph in the first place
simply by doing nothing.

While Marietta is a bad example because she's not an important enough
character.  Her sole role in HP was to betray the DA so she is remembered
solely as a sneak.  However, a person is more than the worst thing he/she
has ever done.  Marietta is not *just* a sneak (don't get me started on how
sneaky Hermione was here).  She was a good enough friend to accompany her to
events that made her uncomfortable.  She undoubtedly regrets what she did
(especially since she can't remember it!).  And we don't know if she will
learn from her error.

Debbie
who thinks Dudley is redeemable, too, even though he plays at juvenile
delinquency



>


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