[HPforGrownups] Choice and Essentialism/Understanding Snape)

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 153959

> Betsy Hp:
> But at the same time, isn't there a bit of tragedy implied in
> neither of those men changing?  A sort of opportunity missed?
> Whatever you think about how JKR handled the great Remus/Tonks love
> affair, I thought it was implied that Remus was making a mistake in
> not taking a risk with Tonks.  That this was a time for him to step
> up and choose a slightly different approach to life.

Magpie:
You know, it's funny because I did think that, but at the same time the way 
it's written Remus is being himself like always.  He says no, but when the 
whole room's pressuring him he says okay.  So he makes the decision 
everybody wants!

But yes, I do think that the idea is that Remus is definitely doing the 
right thing with Tonks, and that his life might be different.  Though I 
don't know that he's really being different--Tonks could be seen as another 
Marauder in that she's willing to be with him despite his being a werewolf, 
and we know he appreciates that.

Usually I do think that the inability of the adults to change is definitely 
the stuff of tragedy. It's like something I think was quoted on the list 
recently, where the difference between adults and kids is that with the 
adults they have to live with the mistakes while the kids always are more 
hopeful.  That definitely applies here, I think.

Betsy:
The options aren't limitless, but they are there.

Magpie:
Yes, that's definitely the way I see it.  It's like with life, actually. 
"Free will" is a meaningless concept because none of us are free from being 
ourselves.  What we have isn't "free will" but "free choice."  We're always 
limited by our own wills, which is bound to who we are, but we can still 
make choices.  There are choices I'm not going to make because of my 
personality that someone else would make.  It's just part of who I am.  But 
at the same time that doesn't mean I have *no* options.  I just have my own 
set of choices while someone else has a different set.  Hermione with the 
same talents who was just a little different in terms of her values or what 
she admired would have been different.

Betsy Hp:
The genius of Jane Austen is that when the big reveal occurs the readers 
says "oh, of *course*!" and while the character may be seen in a new light, 
there isn't a sense that she's lied to us about the character.  And I think 
JKR is trying to do the same thing.  The
Snape in the pensieve, the Snape in the Shack, the Snape in Potions class, 
the Snape singing over Draco, those are all the real Snape.  Even the Snape 
in Spinner's End must have some essential truth to
his character.

Magpie:
Definitely.  I think she always plays fair that way.  What we ultimately 
learn about Snape will, imo, cover both his bad moments and those things 
that seem like something else.

Julie:
Sirius did make that very hard choice to abandon his
family's *ideals*, which resulted in his family abandoning him
as it were).

Magpie:
And JKR ties that clearly to his personality as well.  Sirius is a rebel, 
rebelling is what he does.  That's not meant to cast doubt on his choice, 
but Sirius' fights with his family in themselves were something that came 
out of his personality in a way it wouldn't have, say, come out of Regulus'. 
Sirius did choose the right side and seems to genuinely agree with the 
principles of the good side, but even his having the same kind of family as 
his brother his personality made the choice different for him than it would 
be for another character.

Carol:
James, for all his being an off-screen minor character seen through the eyes 
of others (and unfortunately re-idealized by Harry after Sirius Black's 
death because of his determination to hate Snape), turns out to be a rather 
complex character. Maybe someone can boil him down to his essence, but that 
essence does not appear, at least to me, to be his opposition to the Dark 
Arts.

Magpie:
You totally got me--I was making James up out of my head without really 
knowing him!  The Dark Arts line really is a tricky one because not only do 
we only have that one line which isn't necessarily accurate, but hating the 
Dark Arts can easily be something one would say to give James justification. 
Actually, in that scene I feel like that's what it is.  I mean, it seems 
like James hates Snape for whatever reasons he hates them according to their 
history and whatever the thing is about Snape himself that James hates.  But 
then there's that handy fact that Snape is "bad" that means whatever he does 
to him is okay even if Snape was just sitting there at the time.

So all we really have to go on about James are the actions we know about, 
and those definitely don't add up to whatever his essence is because two 
people can do the same thing for different reasons.

Carol:
I don't think we can safely assume that his conduct in this scene is fully 
or even partially explained by the loss of the Order of Merlin. That loss 
could easily
have been used as a cover for rage with some other cause.

Magpie:
That's a really good point about Snape, and one that's used a lot in the 
books, I think.  Almost everyone Harry knows who gives him information about 
Snape is biased against him even if they're not putting him down. 
Dumbledore refuses to really sit down and talk about why he trusts him, 
Lupin may not like or dislike him but he's still coming from the pov of a 
Marauder.  Lupin's casual "maybe he was jealous of James being good at 
Quidditch" carries a lot of weight even though Lupin has no idea what's 
going on with Snape.  The Marauders would have had their own set ideas about 
what made Snape tick just as Snape has his ideas about James.  But Snape 
himself seems more complex that what he's been reduced to in their eyes.

But it's a clever way of distracting us every time.  Harry himself is, after 
all, always eager to hear the most unflattering and simple explanation for 
Snape there is.  Witness how he makes up his own answers for what was 
probably the biggest mystery of Snape's life, that he just gave Dumbledore a 
song and dance about regret and that's why Dumbledore trusted him.

-m