James' essence/some Sirius and his family WAS: Re: Choice and Essentialism

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 154064

Carol responds:
> My point is that we can't reduce James's "essence" to an opposition 
to
> the Dark Arts. 

Alla:

I think that this is can hold water or not, we shall see in book 7, 
BUT my point is that there is nothing to indicate that James was NOT 
opposed to Dark Arts, as I don't know, part of his nature, if not an 
essence of it.


Carol:
The information we have about him is contradictory and
> comes from biased sources (Snape on the one hand;
> Black/Lupin/Mcgonagall on the other). Black is the only person who
> speaks of James's opposition to the Dark Arts. The one scene in 
which
> we actually see him shows nothing of the sort. He seems much more
> complex to characterize by a single trait attributed to him by a
> single character, particularly one who is biased in his favor.
>

Alla:

Single trait? Probably not, but ONE of his traits, I would say yes, 
till I hear to the contrary. Right now, even Snape does not say 
anything about James not being opposed to Dark Arts.

Carol: 
> I'm *not* saying that he wasn't opposed to the Dark Arts, nor am I
> applying that Black was lying (though he may be seeing James as
> Slughorn sees Lily, with a tendency to view him favorably and ignore
> his failings because he's dead). It's a human failing to wish to see
> people we cared about as better than they were after they're dead.

Alla:

So, if you are not saying that he was not opposed to Dark Arts and I 
don't think that we have any canon support to say that he was not, 
what are we arguing about?

That James cannot be boiled down so to speak to his opposition to 
Dark Arts? Sure, I am sure that was not the only thing he cared about 
in life.  Or is it your argument that Sirius statement is not to be 
believed after all?

Carol: 
> Also, it doesn't seem to me that an opposition to the Dark Arts
> explains the childhood antagonism between Severus and James, any 
more
> than it explains the similar antagonism between Draco and Harry.

Alla:

And it seems to me that we don't have sufficient information to claim 
with certainty that opposition to the Dark Arts does not explain 
childhood antagonism between Severus and James. Antagonism between 
Draco and Harry absolutely in my opinion has some "political" base 
for it – NOT Dark Arts hatred, but hatred of ideology Draco stands 
for. Of course that is not  all of it – it is also two kids who did 
not like each other on the spot, but  we don't know everything that 
occurred between Severus and James, IMO.


Carol:
> Certainly James himself gives no such explanation. ("Because he
> exists" is all we get.) 

Alla:

Because we are not supposed to get such explanation in book 5 yet 
IMO, just as we were not supposed to know that dear Severus invented 
that wonderful curse called Sectusemptra in his youth. Just as we 
were not supposed to know that Severus was being bullied by the means 
of his own invention yet. I wonder what additional information we 
will get in book 7 to shed more light on it.


Carol:
Nor do I think that what we're told about
> James and Sirius being the best in their at "everything they did"
> holds water--HBP seems to indicate that Severus was better than 
either
> of Potions and DADA, for example, though perhaps as usual his
> brilliance was overshadowed and underacknowledged.

Alla:

Why is he better at DADA? Because he reads it after exam? I see it as 
very insufficient evidence.
Maybe James and Sirius were brilliant enough that they did not need 
extra studying.
 

Carol:
> And while James no doubt opposed the Dark Arts when he was older, as
> opposed to when he was fifteen and chiefly concerned with getting
> Lily's attention and hexing people who annoyed him, he never had the
> reasons for hating the Dark Arts from childhood onward that Sirius
> did, and he (James) almost certainly had other reasons for opposing
> Voldemort, most notably Voldemort's reign of terror, that caused him
> to join the Order in the first place.

Alla:

James died when he was what twenty one or twenty two? He is likely to 
join the order right after school, IMO. You are saying that he 
changed THAT much in a couple years? I would say he simply did not 
have time to do so, IMO of course. I remember myself at fifteen – 
sixteen. My "ideological" core was quite formed by that time. I of 
course kept growing as a person, but in politics I knew pretty clear 
what I was standing for.

 
Carol:
> I'm not knocking James, though I don't like his bullying behavior in
> the Pensieve scene, nor am I saying that Sirius Black was a liar
> (though I certainly don't see him as an objective witness). As 
Magpie
> says, both Black and Lupin were trying to placate Harry when they
> talked to him after the Pensieve scene. Both of them wanted 
> Harry to regard his father with something like the affection they 
felt
> for him. And I agree with Magpie that Black--who is surely not known
> for analytical thinking (my observation, not hers)--has a tendency 
to
> oversimplify things, including both his family background and 
Severus
> Snape.


Alla:

If Magpie made an observation that Sirius has a tendency to 
oversimplify things, then I have to disagree with her. Sorry, Magpie. 

Trying to justify to Harry - YES, oversimplify things in general - 
not really, IMO.
 

> Carol, simply noting that what we see of James and what we hear of 
him
> don't create a clear and coherent picture of either the boy or the 
man

Alla, who thinks that insufficient information does not necessarily 
equal incoherent picture.