Being Good and Evil

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 154620

> > Kellie now
> > I have to agree with Amiable Dorsai on this.  I am not saying 
that
> > everything Harry and his friends did are right.  Everyone makes 
mistakes,
> > and if Harry had been portrayed as one who didn't make mistakes, 
I would
> > have a problem with that.
> 
> Magpie:
> But--not speaking for Betsy on this, but you're looking at it from 
the pov 
> of a reader who knows a lot more than Draco *and* is in Harry's 
pov.   In 
> our own lives don't most of us probably make stupid decisions or 
dislike 
> great people--especially if we don't know they're the hero of the 
story?  A 
> lot of AD's examples don't even play the same way from Draco's 
pov, they're 
> objective comparisons of two characters in the books based on 
things that 
> Harry and the reader hold dear, as if that's objective--sometimes 
things 
> Draco wouldn't even know about.

Alla:

Um, not quite. I just don't buy the argument ( not necessarily 
yours) that seems to absolve Draco from all personal responsibility 
BECAUSE his parents are so bad.

IMO everybody first and foremost learns their morality, their views 
from their parents and if Draco would have been raised in vacuum and 
have not encountered ANYBODY but his parents and friends, then I 
would have probably understood that argument.

But he is NOT. He is not even going to Durmstrang, where arguably 
Dark Arts are more thriving, etc. He is going to Hogwarts and he has 
to be SO blind IMO to not see the difference between how Dumbledore 
behaves and how Voldemort behaves and by extension how Draco's 
parents behave.

All the examples that were given are those that IMO Draco is VERY 
likely to hear about.  For example I did not give the example of 
Harry being tortured at Graveyard, although I am thinking that 
Lucius could have described that to Draco in great details too, but 
Okay, Draco was not there, BUT Draco hears that Cedric was killed by 
Voldemort ( by Peter, but it is the same for purpose of the 
argument).

Does that influence him somehow? Not that I noticed.

MAgpie: 
> If you really get into Draco's pov his own behavior, while I think 
still 
> it's objectively bad (for instance, I don't think even from his 
pov he's 
> doing something righteous in picking on Hermione), and may be 
forced to 
> change or suffer, I don't think it always comes out as just him 
being 
> intentionally evil and worse than Harry.  Especially with the 
Voldemort 
> part--Voldemort is their guy, the "savior" of the Purebloods quite 
possibly, 
> from Draco's pov.  It's not like he doesn't try to put his money 
where his 
> mouth is on that "I want to help the Heir" thing.  He does wind up 
helping 
> the Heir, and learns first hand maybe that this is actually a bad 
thing.

Alla:

He is worse than Harry precisely because he is on Voldemort side 
IMO, I am not even getting into his personality, because as I said I 
am not really tempted to look behind personality of the bigot 
unfortunately.

It is a very low threshhold for me to overcome and Draco passes with 
flying colours. Draco was raised to believe in Voldemort, sure, he 
was, but how does that make his beliefs not worse?

Does he not know that Voldemort at very least killed two people and 
left a baby an orphan? And I am assuming that Draco did not hear 
anything about Voldemort's first reign of terror, which is IMO not 
possible.

He wants to help Heir of Slytherin commit murder, he has no problem 
with the mudbloods dying. Yes, I'd say that it makes him MUCH worse 
than Harry.

And yes, he winds up helping the Heir, I do hope that this was the 
lesson that would stick with him, but what I am not buying is that 
Draco bears no personal responsibility because he was raised in the 
bad environment. 

As I said I am not sure that this is your argument.

Magpie:
> I would never say that we as readers can't see a clear difference, 
but this 
> "Those of us not raised by a corrupt, racist, abusive, slave-
holding, 
> boot-licking murderer may have a different view of life" is the 
whole point. 

Alla:

I agree with the first part of your sentence.


Magpie:
> One isn't really an objectively better person just for being smart 
enough to 
> be not raised by corrupt, racist, abusive, slave-holding, boot-
licking 
> murderers.  There are tons of people like that in the world who 
grow up into 
> corrupt, racist, abusive, slave-holding (heh--like Harry?), boot-
licking 
> (wonder if any of the heroes seem that way to some?) murderers.  
Honestly, 
> most people go through life never challenging the morality that 
they were 
> taught growing up--it's rare.  And yet still they often talk about 
their 
> morality as if it's something they earned or figured out 
themselves, unlike 
> those other people who think differently.

Alla:

You see, I am not sure I understand you. On one hand the argument 
acknowledges that Draco's side is objectively bad, on the other you 
do seem to imply that since this is the morality Draco was taught, 
he bears no responsibility for what he did?

Could you please clarify? We all get our views from somewhere, as I 
said I think Draco SAW things that should have forced him to reflect 
upon it earlier before he tried to commit murders. I hold him 
responsible for not doing so.

There are characters who do see that their prejudices are wrong , 
they evolve and grow. Ron snarks at Lupin "get away from me 
werewolf", so it seems to me that either Molly and Arthur shared to 
some extent this prejudice ( which I do not find very likely, but it 
is of course possible), OR Ron got it from some other source.

I do not see anywhere in OOP from Ron's interactions with Lupin that 
he somehow prejudiced against him.

Does Draco shows anything like that? As I said, I surely hope that 
he will, but the fact that he was raised by Lucius does not absolve 
him IMO.


Magpie:
<SNIP>
>Although we don't see it we do hear that 
> Voldemort's ideas are pretty prevalent in the WW, as Betsy pointed 
out as 
> well.

Alla:

Dumbledore does his best to not make them prevalent in Hogwarts IMO. 
Does Draco listen? As I said, one example is that he employs Hagrid 
and Lupin. Hagrid, who was unjustly expelled and Lupin, who cannot 
get a job otherwise. Does that teach Draco any kind of lesson? Not 
IMO.

JMO,

Alla.