Crouch Sr. (the abbreviated version) (and jr.)

[thebookandtherose]

No: HPFGUIDX 154648

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lucky_kari" <lucky_kari at ...>
wrote in:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/37476

(SNIP)Crouch
> is indeed a brilliant man. But he has more than that. A certain
style,
> a calmness in the most bizarre situations (the only time he loses
his
> temper is right at the very end of the trial scene), a methodical
way
> of going about things.

BookishRose:
            I think that's precisly what I don't like about Crouch
sr. I'm the sort of person that prides myself on following my
heart, and to be honest I don't trust logic much at all. I'll admit
it has its uses but it rarely takes into account the innate
illogical quality in human beings; communism for example is logical
on paper but it doesn't work in reality because reality itself is
not logical; happiness and compassion and love are illogical, yet
they drive almost everything we do. Communism makes the mistake of
considering humans to be rational beings and therefore does not
work. (I have nothing against communists btw it's a nice idea, it
just doesn't work.)

Due to this, I find Barty Crouch sr. and his cold, robotic
application of logic unnerving. That and the fact the only emotion
he shows is anger.


> 3. On the House-elf front, dismissing Winky was a very bad move.

BookishRose:
            *snort* I'll say. Crouch (who may be cold but could
never be called stupid) must have realised that it was his son, not
Winky who conjured up the dark mark, yet he still gave her clothes-
something she shows no signs of recovering from even by book six. He
sacrificed her for the sake of keeping his son a secret. Was he too
far in to let Barty jr. be discovered? Maybe, but there was no need
to be so harsh on Winky.

> 4. Crouch did not sacrifice his son to his career ambition. This
seems
> to be a red herring in the plot. Crouch thought Barty Jr. was as
> guilty as sin, and was quite justified in thinking so.

BookishRose:
            Yes but he didn't have to send him to Azkaban did he?
I'm being controversial here, but I'd like to think if I had a son
and the decision of whether or not to send him to Azkaban was in my
hands I would do everything within my power to stop him being sent
away, no matter what he'd done. I couldn't live with myself
otherwise. I'm not talking about the law here, I'm talking about
love and loyalty and paternal instinct. What would you do if a
member of your family was facing Azkaban and you had the chance to
save him(/her)?

The poor kid, (and he was a kid at nineteen) was pleading and
actually screaming for his father, and what did Crouch sr. say; "I
have no son". Jeez, model parent huh?

I mean surely he could have asked someone else to oversee the trial.
It was grossly inappropriate for him to be legally involved in his
own son's trial, except as a character witness, even if he did do
the legal thing.

>(put up your hands if you
> think Crouch Sr. was in Slytherin.)

*BookishRose shudders at Crouch sr.'s ruthlessness, ambition and
betrayal of his own son who was practically a child.(and I don't
care what Barty jr. did it still was betrayal) thrusts her hand
firmly into the air*


> 6. Barty Jr. is an ungrateful b-eeeeeeeeeep. Don't care how
unloving
> he thought his father was. Being under Imperius curse was a heap
nicer
> than Azkaban, especially since he was guilty.

BookishRose:
            I disagree. In the pensieve young Barty seemed like a kid
who has gone waaay out of his depth, no matter how good his acting
is. I think his fathers treatment of him was a large factor in his
fanaticism.

I think that when his father condemned him to Azkaban and then
forced him to live practically as a ghost for about 15 years he
transferred the role of 'father figure' to Voldermort. Hell, I can't
imagine him having the best relationship with his dad even before he
became a deatheater.

I think that even a short stay in Azkaban, the guilt from his mother
taking his place, the rejection from his father and the exclusion
from the rest of the world were enough to push someone who has shown
no signs of being a particularly strong character before the trial
over the edge.

The combination of frustration from confinment, disappointment from
the Dark Lord's fall, resentment of his father's treatment of him
and guilt for letting his mother take his place (which I don't think
Crouch sr. would have let him forget) plus a whole range of emotions
I'd need Hermione to explain would have been unbearable. So it's
feasable to suggest that his fanaticism was a chanel for these
emotions, stopping him going even madder and/or mad in a different
way. Because as much as I love Barty jr. he is clearly at least a
bit mad.

What really saddens me about Barty's story is that he could have
changed. I don't see how any judge could sentance a screaming kid
the same as Bellatrix, who was defiant throughout the trial, openly
claiming alligence to Voldermort. I honestly believe that if Barty
had been acquitted he could have realised if maybe not the moral
implications then at the very least the legal repecutions of his
behavoir.


> I loved Elkins's comparison of Barty Jr. to Boo Radley, however.

BookishRose:
           Me too, it was pure genius. I think it was at that point
Barty jr. became my favourite character. (Not when I saw David
Tennant playing him in the film no matter what my sister might say
or how much I loved his jacket.)

> 7. Barty Jr. inherited his talent for acting from his father.
Watch
> how he manipulates Diggory in "The Dark Mark": down to the point
where

BookishRose:
           That's what intrigues me most though. He's intelligent
even if he is unhinged and I just can't understand whats going on
inside his head, which just makes me want to more.

He's clearly having the time of his life inpersonating Moody; he
even performs the cruciatus curse in front of Neville (and the
Imperious in front of Ron if you buy into Imperioed!Arthur), almost
everything he says has some nasty double meaning and he is just so
convincing. I bet no one guessed for a minute it was him.

I think somewhere during his confinment Barty jr. not only snapped
but turned into an entirely different person. I don't think the kid
at the trial is acting, I think he has so much yet to go through
before he breaks completely. I don't think Barty jr. is brave or
strong or even particularly likable judging on what I've seen.

But he's practically a kid and to borrow an idea from Terry
Prattchet to put him in a criminal justice system that turns
redeemable first offenders into hardened criminals (not to mention
maniacs) rather than one that turns hardened criminals into redeemed
men and women is asking for trouble. He's nineteen-years-old for
heavens sake, he deserves a second chance.

> 9. J.K. Rowling said that it's the unhappy people who come back as
> ghosts. I can't think of a person in all the books who dies more
> unhappily than Crouch Sr.

BookishRose:
            Mmmm agreed. But I can't think of anyone whose life
sucks more than Barty jr's.

BookishRose, who wants to defend Barty jr. because his father
should have.