Being Good and Evil ( Draco and a bit of Ron)/Harry as DD man

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 154655

> Magpie:
> I don't think that Draco's absolved of responsibility at all 
> either.  Every person has things that influence him, but also acts 
> himself in response to those influences.  As a character I don't 
> think Draco's ever been let off the hook this way.  Sure we know 
his 
> Dad's a DE and he's been raised with certain beliefs, but it's not 
> Lucius who feels the results of his behavior, it's Draco himself.  
I 
> thought that was a lot of what HBP was about was Draco coming to a 
> place where he was seeing the reality of this.  If he goes through 
> life acting a certain way, believing certain things, that's his 
life 
> and no one else's.

Alla:

Okay, so far I completely agree with you :)

 
> Alla:
> > 
> > All the examples that were given are those that IMO Draco is VERY 
> > likely to hear about.  For example I did not give the example of 
> > Harry being tortured at Graveyard, although I am thinking that 
> > Lucius could have described that to Draco in great details too, 
> but 
> > Okay, Draco was not there, BUT Draco hears that Cedric was killed 
> by 
> > Voldemort ( by Peter, but it is the same for purpose of the 
> > argument).
> 
> Magpie:
> Some of these things he would hear about and, with the bias he has, 
> and be unlikely to look at them the way we do.  He's not sitting 
off 
> detached and making a rational judgment, he's reacting in the 
moment 
> to different knocks and jolts.  We are, I think, dealing with a kid 
> far more influenced by his emotions about the people involved.  
> Which is not supposed to be an excuse for his behavior either, it's 
> just not surprising.

Alla:

See, the funny thing is that the way you put it, I do not have much 
disagreement with you again. :)

I think I was reacting to Betsy statement ( I think and I hope I do 
not misinterpret it) that Draco does not see the good things that 
good guys do, that good guys do bad things and Draco, poor dear 
cannot distinguish between them or something ( again, Betsy please 
correct me if I am wrong)

What you are saying makes total sense to me - Draco reacts often 
based on his emotions, BUT again it is not the same as to say that he 
sees bad things - he is unable to distinguish between them, sure, and 
your reasons seem plausible to me , especially since you do not state 
them as an excuse.

Ugh, I guess the point I am trying to make that yes, it is NOT 
surprising, but it is still DRACO's problem that he cannot see that 
good guys ARE good guys and they do plenty of good ,decent things.

They also make mistakes ( good guys, I mean), what I am strongly 
disagreeing with ( and now I am not sure if anybody even made this 
argument in the first place) that good guys are somehow at fault for 
Draco's behavior, that it is because of THEM Draco cannot see right 
from wrong.

Makes sense? 
> Magpie:
> Not at all!  His story, imo, is very centered on just how bad his 
> beliefs are.  I think that's what the author is often interested in 
> with him.  A lot of fanfics are happy to have Draco switch sides 
for 
> political, self-preservation reasons, but I don't think JKR is 
> interested in letting him get away with that.  His beliefs could 
> very well kill him.

Alla:

YES. Thank you. It is the greatest pleasure talking to you, even 
about Draco. You can TOTALLY make me see the reasonableness of your 
argument. I mean I will never be sympathetic to Draco ( although I 
guess never say never :)), but the story of the literary character 
who is forced to confront his beliefs, I can see. It is the 
justifications for his behavior I am not buying. :)


 
> Magpie:
> I'm not saying that he has no personal responsibility for what he 
> does because of his family, but rather saying that you can't 
> understand his actions without taking that into account. I just 
> don't see anything that should have forced Draco to reflect upon 
> this stuff earlier at all. In every book before HBP there's some 
> reference to the fact that death isn't even real for Draco, much 
> less something he's reflecting upon.  It becomes real for him in 
> HBP.  Sure it would have been great for him to have reacted to 
> Cedric's death by changing sides, but it doesn't bother me that he 
> didn't.  I find the character a lot more compelling the way he's 
> written.  Had he changed sides earlier, in fact, we would lose a 
lot 
> of the punch of his personal responsibility because he would just 
> have been an observer on the sidelines.  Who cares which way the 
> Malfoy kid leans unless the Malfoy kid is a player?

Alla:

Ooo, you see that is very interesting for me again. For me JKR missed 
the moment where I would have felt sympathy for Draco. Let me try to 
explain.

I was wondering for the longest time why hurt/comfort does not work 
for me in Draco's department. I mean, granted as I said I drew very 
specific RL associations with Draco bigotry, BUT hurt/comfort worked 
for me in Snape character for quite some time, because I saw in Snape 
the potential for change and I did not see ANYTHING indicating that 
Draco would change in five books.

See, I fully accept that HBP may signal the potential change in 
Draco, I mean if the events on the Tower will not cause him to wake 
up, I think nothing will, BUT for five books he was the same 
disgusting bigot ( my view of him only) without indicating ANY 
positive qualities.

What you say about him changing when stakes went up makes sense, BUT 
I would love for JKR to drop me a SIGN, small sign that Draco is not 
totally bad. I mean one can argue that there were signs  in earlier 
books, but I did not see any.

What I mean by signs would be, I don't know, Harry noticing a tinge 
of guilt in Malfoy's eyes when he hears about Buckbeak execution, for 
example. It does not have to be for a long time. The next sentence 
could be that Harry thinks that he imagined all that or something.

Or in the similar fashion narrator noticing that Malfoy was a bit 
upset when he hears about Cedric's death.

SOMETHING small, but that indicates that there are "latent" good 
qualities in Draco.

I mean you can argue that his age is the best signal that he would 
change and that is a good argument, but Draco as the same nasty 
bastard just went for too long for me.

Am I making sense? At all?

 
> Magpie:
> Interesting comparison, because Ron changes his mind about Lupin 
> based on experience, doesn't he?  It's through knowing Lupin that 
> Ron comes to think werewolves aren't bad.  Lupin has treated Ron 
> really well up until that point--and the two of them aren't just 
> teacher and student.  Molly likes Lupin just fine, but is nervous 
> around werewolves in general because they're contagious.  (I 
believe 
> she doesn't like Arthur sharing a ward with one in OotP.)  In the 
> end it still seems to turn on the same thing Draco does, which is 
> personal relationships.

Alla:

Actually, no that was not quite my point, although yes, of course Ron 
learns about it from experiences, but I was trying to show that it 
does NOT look that Ron learns  that he should not be prejudiced 
against werewolves from his parents. he learns about it from his OWN 
experiences, maybe even contrary to what he had been taught at home.

I was trying to say that Draco also had to be able to learn from his 
OWN experiences and maybe even contrary to what he learnt at home.

Is it too much to demand of him? Not to me anyways.


Phoenixgod2000:
<SNIP>
> Am I the only one who kept wanting Harry to say "I'm my own man." 
every 
> time someone asked if he was Dd's man in HBP?

Alla:

Believe me, you are not. :) JKR did an amazing job to restore my 
sympathy to DD's character in HBP, but oh my God, I HATED that line.

Hey, I can still hope that this is what book 7 would be about 
partially - Harry coming into his own, and NOT becoming carboon copy 
of Dumbledore. :)

I guess we can still hope that maybe when in book 7 Harry would do 
something differently in a good way than what Dumbledore would have 
done, he would say that to someone who would tell him 
that "Dumbledore would have done that", that I respect Dumbledore, 
but I am my own man.

JMO,

Alla.