Is Snape good or evil? (longer)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 148944

> 
> Dung:
> Certainly there's a necessary element of picking and choosing 
canon, 
> but there's still plenty of room to be inconsistent in your method 
> of doing so.
> 
> When evaluating evidence, I reckon asking ourselves the following 
> questions (in decreasing importance) should lead to some insight: 
> 
> 1. Is there a firm canonical reason to suspect that a character 
may 
> be lying, or wanting to conceal the whole truth? (Particularly 
> immediately obvious reasons, which do not rely on a re-read and a 
> theory.)
> 2. Does all or part of your chosen morsel factually conflict with 
> existing canon? 
> 3. Is there any conveniently missing piece of information of which 
> the readers are already aware in an otherwise comprehensive 
account?


Alla:

But this is YOUR method of evaluating canon evidence, no? It is 
certainly reasonable one, but how do you know that JKR will use the 
same way to hint at whether character is telling the truth or lying?

Let me say it again and I am hoping that I will be clear this time. 
I do NOT find your argument for support of Snape telling the truth 
about knowing Draco's task to be convincing, when you seem to be so 
sure that he is lying about his role in Sirius' death and Emmelyne 
Vance death.

Dung:
> If the answer to any of the above is yes, then you've got a good 
> basis for speculating that a character is lying.

Alla:

Ok, why? Even if the answers to those questions are YES, which I am 
not quite agree with, how does it stop Snape from lying about 
knowing Draco's task?

Dung:
> If the answer to all of the above is no, you can still speculate 
> that a character is lying, of course, but your argument is weaker. 
<SNIP of Dung's ranking of canonical evidence. Go UPTHREAD to read 
it>

Alla:

According to YOUR criteria. I am not sure that this is JKR's 
criteria.

Dung: 
> Number 1. Snape is a *known* double-agent (who immediately thought 
> on their first read through of Spinner's End "Aha! Firm evidence 
> that Snape's a traitor?" Very few, I'd bet, because it was nothing 
> like firm evidence.) 

Alla:

So, how does it prove that he is telling the truth about knowing 
Draco's task?


Dung:
> Number 2. There are two bits, actually:
> - "I was curious, I admit it, and not at all inclined to murder 
him 
> the moment he set foot in the castle" is certainly at odds with 
the 
> look Snape gives Harry at the start of term feast in PS, which 
gave 
> him the feeling that Snape "didn't like Harry at all", and of 
course 
> Snape's treatment of Harry in their first ever potions lesson. 
> - "...it certainly helped dispose of Sirius Black..." is blatantly 
> at odds with the canon we have in OotP.

Alla:

I am not sure where you see contradictions here, personally. Snape 
not inclined to murder Harry in my book is not in any kind of 
contradiction with Snape willing to mistreat Harry. I think that 
Snape at that point in time could have preferred Harry being alive 
while doing many nasty things to him.

And of course I see no contradictions in Snape claiming involvement 
in Sirius death. Kreacher went to Malfoys, sure. What stopped Snape 
doing the same thing - going to Malfoys or Voldemort and telling 
them how much Harry loves Sirius or vice versa? I think Kreacher and 
Snape could have easily BOTH contributed to the deed. Nope, not a 
contradiction in my mind.

Oh, and of course nothing in canon contradicts that Snape was 
involved in Vance's death, IMO.

Dung:
> Number 3. Why is there no mention *at all* of Snape having alerted 
> the Order and royally screwed up Voldy's plan to get the prophecy?

Alla:

You see, this is a very good example of why I find your criteria of 
weighing canon evidence to be flawed. How is Snape not mentioning 
that he warned the Order relevant to determination about whether 
Snape was telling the truth or lying to Black sisters about knowing 
Draco's task and being involved in the deaths of Sirius and Vance? 

Dung:
I'm arguing that my assumptions are better supported by canon 
> than Alla's. A fine distinction, but an important one.

Alla:

Dung, I am starting to get a feeling that you won't let it go till I 
say that your assumptions are better supported than mine. You use 
your OWN criteria and claim that according to THIS criteria your 
assumptions are better supported by canon.
 I don't know what else to say. It is your absolute right to think 
this way. Personally, I am still very puzzled why you choosing 
to believe ONE part of Snape's speech is better supported than me 
choosing to believe another part of his speech to the SAME parties, 
if I may say.

Thank you for interesting discussion.

Alla.