Trusting Snape

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 149067

PJ:
<snipped>
 No where does the author tell 
> us that "Severus, please" can't just as easily be the stunned 
> surprise of a man who's alarmed and saddened to see someone he 
> trusts joining up with the very people he was so sure he'd abandoned 
> ages ago. And no where does she say that it's Snape's job per DD's 
> orders to save himself.  Those thoughts are all *I think* and *I 
> surmise* based, I feel, on a need to make Snape better and 1,000 
> times more noble than what the author has ever (in 6 books!)given us 
> on the printed page. 

Carol responds:
"I feel" is not interpretation. It's just your emotional reaction to
an interpretation you don't like. Let's try to look at the actual
canon and interpret it, okay?

*Of course* JKR doesn't say that it's Snape's job to save himself
(which is not exactly what I said, but never mind). She's leaving the
events on the tower, and the conversation in the forest, ambiguous. We
aren't supposed to know (yet) the exact relationship between Snape and
DD, or why DD trusted him, or whether he was right to do so.

*Of course* "Severus, please" could mean what you interpret it to
mean. I said in my original post (which you snipped)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/149027
that we don't know what DD means by those words. *Any* interpretation
of "Severus, please" is "*I think* and *I surmise* based," whether the
interpretation supports DDM!, OFH!, or ESE!Snape. We can't get inside
either Snape's or DD's head, only inside Harry's, and he, too, sees
only from the outside. We do, however, know *from canon* that DD is
not afraid of death, which makes it most unlikely, as I said in my
original post, that he's begging Snape not to kill him. We also know,
as I said in my original post, that Snape's wand was not raised when
DD spoke those words. (I can provide an actual quotation with page
number to prove this assertion if you need it.) So, again, it *seems*
most unlikely, not to mention illogical, that DD is asking Snape not
to kill him.

The appellation "DDM!Snape" is not synonymous with "good Snape," It
reflects *only* Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore--nothing else. Please
don't assume that we're all trying to make Snape "1,000 times more
noble" than JKR has shown him to be. Siriusly Snapey Susan has cited
examples of his courage and loyalty to Dumbledore in the text itself.
The OFH! and ESE!Snapers are faced with the necessity of explaining
these away. All interpretations of Snape--yours and mine included--are
based on evidence that is anything but self-explanatory, and all of us
are trying to figure out what it means. All of us are making
assumptions based on our interpretation of the text, drawing tentative
conclusions based on what we have read in the books. The belief that
he's out for himself is just as much an assumption as the belief that
he's Dumbledore's man. What matters is the *canon evidence* for each
position, which I tried to present in my original post and am still
hoping to see from you.

PJ: 
> OFH!Snape doesn't need any reading between the lines at all.  No 
> guesses, no surmises... A straight read from cover to cover exactly 
> what the author has put down on paper. 

Carol responds:
For example? Can you illustrate using the events on the tower? Since
you didn't go upthread as I requested, let me quote my version of what
actually happened so you can explain how it differs from yours:

"Enter Snape, who *cannot* have expected to see a helpless, wandless,
and apparently dying Dumbledore sliding down the wall. Nor, we know,
did he expect Draco to succeed in bringing DEs into Hogwarts. Like DD,
he knew nothing of the Vanishing Cabinet in the RoR. He sees the
second broom and, putting two and two together as only Snape can,
understands that Harry is hiding there in his Invisibility Cloak,
presumably immobilized since he's silent. He sees that Draco has
slightly lowered his wand, and one of the DEs informs him that the boy
can't kill DD. Snape is bound by his UV to save Draco and to "do the
deed" or die. He knows that the moment has come--perhaps he feels
invisible ropes of fire twining around his wrist--and still he does
not act. DD speaks his name and Snape looks at him. A look of hatred
and revulsion crosses his face, but still he does not raise his wand.
Only when DD whispers again, "Severus, please. . . ." does he cast the
spell that sends DD over the battlements."

What do you see here to disagree with, and why? And please note the
"perhaps" in the reference to the "invisible ropes of fire," which I'm
deriving from "Spinner's End," and which are, of course, only
speculation on my part.

PJ: 
> Thankyou for the posting pointers.  I will try to keep them in mind 
> for any future posts, but the problem was, as I mentioned above, 
> that while it was nice to see it all in one place and in one post, 
> it's the same basic arguement that's been wandering around this list 
> since shortly after HBP was released and I thought to save myself 
> some typing at 3am.

Carol:
You're welcome. And I'd suggest not posting at 3 a.m. unless your
brain works more efficiently at that hour than mine!
> 
PJ: 
> What *might* have happened [on the tower]? Here it is...
> 
> If Snape were truly DDM! then he'd have taken Flitwick and a few 
> Aurors/DA up to the tower (since he could get through the barrier)
> and finally come out in the open as DDM!Snape before he died. 

Carol responds:
*Snape* could have gotten through the barrier, but both Tonks and
Lupin tried and failed. I doubt that Flitwick and the Aurors could
have gotten through even if Snape were with him. Moreover, Snape
didn't know what he would find on the tower, only that his time was
short if the UV was about to be activated. Why would he endanger
Flitwick, whom we have seen flying across the room as the result of a
mere banishing spell cast by a student, by bringing him into a room
full of DEs, much less endanger DA members by ordering them to come
with him? Whatever Snape's motives in stupefying Flitwick, Flitwick's
life and those of Hermione and Luna, whom Snape ordered to tend him,
may well have been saved by Snape's action. And note that he didn't
*kill* any of them, as ESE!Snape would certainly have done, and
OFH!Snape might also have done. (Exactly what OFH!Snape has to gain
from anything in "The Lightning-Struck Tower" and "Flight of the
Prince" is unclear to me, but perhaps you can explain what you think
he accomplishes in terms of benefitting himself.)


PJ: The 
> vow would've allowed him to get that far since he was also on his 
> way to rescue Draco as well as to see if he'd done the deed.  

Carol:
Would it? How do you know? Aren't you assuming here? And how is he
supposed to rescue Draco if he arrives accompanied by Order members?
Wouldn't the DEs have murdered him as a traitor on the spot if the UV
didn't kill him?
> 
PJ:
> The tower DE's would've died (including that nasty werewolf)

Carol:
What, Snape would have killed them all off? Or the Order members, who
had already been fighting other DEs, would have defeated the DEs on
the tower, who had not yet been involved in a battle? How do you know?
I think, based on canon evidence, that the Order members could not
even have gotten through the barrier, and if they had, Snape would
have been killed as a traitor the moment he showed his face. Fenrir
Greyback, who had already expressed a desire to kill the weakened
Dumbledore, would have seized that moment to viciously murder him.
After all, that was the job the DEs had been sent to do. Speculation,
of course, but at least as likely as your scenario, which seems to be
entirely based on wishful thinking.

 Harry 
> and Draco would've survived and could've worked it out between 
> themselves (Harry was a witness to DD's promise of hiding Draco's 
> family and could've convinced the order to honor that promise)since 
> now Draco knew he wasn't cut out to be a DE and Harry knew Draco 
> refused to kill DD even though it would mean his family would be 
> killed.  A mutual respect may have had a chance to blossom. <snip>

Carol:
Wishful thinking again. Remember that the moment DD died, Harry would
have been released from his freezing spell and rushed out (as he
always does) to defend the fallen Dumbledore. Do you really think that
the DEs would not have immediately turned their attention on him and
killed him? And what would have kept them from murdering Draco for not
killing Dumbledore himself as ordered? Remember, there's no Snape in
this scenario. He would be dead at this point, either from the vow or
the DEs. So you have maybe Mad-Eye Moody, Flitwick, and Neville or
Luna to fight Fenrir Greyback, the Carrows, and the brutal-faced DE.
Draco, if he were still alive, would probably be frozen with fear and
confusion. We've seen no evidence of his courage and plenty of
evidence of his fear for his life and his enmity toward Harry.

PJ: 
> Dumbledore may have died anyway, but Snape didn't have to kill him.

Carol:
I agree that DD might, and indeed probably would, have died anyway.
But Snape's killing him insured that Draco's soul was undamaged, that
Draco and Harry survived, and that the DEs were removed from the
school--on Snape's orders. What better outcome could be hoped for--for
everyone except Snape himself? DD's sacrifice combined with Snape's
has, as I see it, saved many lives. At any rate, you can't deny that
Snape (whatever his motives) ordered the DEs off the grounds,
preventing them from commiting additional murder and mayhem, and that
Snape saved Harry from the Crucio.

And Snape, as I said earlier, is now deprived of employment, the trust
of the Order and his former colleagues, the freedom to move about in
the WW without being arrested. He has his life, for what it's worth.
But unless he intends to use it to help destroy Voldemort, I don't see
what he has gained *for himself* by saving it.

OFH!Snape is anything but obvious, and I am still waiting for canon
evidence to support it.

Carol, with apologies for repeated posts to the same thread