Snape Survey, Snapeity, Dumbledore's sacrifice.

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 149171

> Alla:
> 
> Right, sorry, my bad. But she did say that Dumbledore's shock HAS 
to
> happen, correct? 

Magpie:
She's not saying that shock, specifically has to happen.  She's 
saying that if Dumbledore trusts Snape 100% he needs to change from 
trusting him to seeing him as a betrayer, and that there is no sign 
of a change in Dumbledore, no catalyst for a change in Dumbledore 
and no time for a change in Dumbledore between the moment Snape runs 
into the room and the moment he pleads with him. 

Alla:
I did not misunderstand that part? So, what I am
> saying that it is EITHER unnecessary since for me it makes enough
> sense without DD showing shock OR what
> Harry saw was enough for me to feel DD shock.

Magpie:
It makes sense for you the same way it makes sense for Harry, but 
does not fit the actual events of the scene.  You and Harry already 
have a narrative in your mind where Snape betrays Dumbledore so 
Dumbledore not showing any sign of seeing it is either unimportant 
or explained away.  But the fact remains that Harry being shocked at 
Dumbledore's pleading in no way says Dumbledore was shocked at 
anything.  I think all the signs point to Dumbledore shocking Harry 
by revealing something that was already going on, not changing.

> Alla:
> 
> Right, but that is the thing. For me it is enough. From Harry being
> shocked by DD pleading I can imagine that DD was being shocked
> because of "for the first time in his life" part. It is unnecessary
> for me for JKR to insert the part of "DD was looking shocked", etc.
> Makes sense?

Magpie:
Yes, it makes sense--but only in terms of explaining how you are re-
imagining the scene.  It still doesn't fit the facts that happen in 
front of us. It's Harry who immediately sees Snape as a threat in 
the scene--and he has a catalyst for it: Dumbledore's pleading.  If 
Dumbledore is going to have an even bigger realization and change, 
he needs a catalyst too, and a beat for him to change.  He doesn't 
get either.

> Alla:
> 
> For example so much had been argued ( not you, I am just saying in
> general) in the past that DD and Snape communicated by legilimency.
> I do not think that it had been wordless communications, but we 
KNOW
> that legilimenc can pick up feelings, no? Who knows, maybe DD does
> not need an eye contact to pick up Snape's emotions, maybe he 
sensed
> betrayal the moment Snape entered the room. Just speculating here,
> but IMO JKR can give us that and it can make total sense, to me
> anyway.

Magpie:
I should just say I don't buy any Legilimancy theories.  The only 
time I buy it's happening is when one person is looking intently 
into another's eyes--we've been told you have to do that.  Here 
Dumbledore has no time to do that. Plus if he was doing that we'd 
still need to see a beat where he "heard" or "saw" that Snape was 
not the man he thought he was moments ago.  There would still be a 
change in Dumbledore that would take a moment.

> Alla:
> 
> And what I am saying is that Snape does not NEED to be Voldemort's
> redux or Number 1 Wizard in the world to lead DE. All he need is 
the
> ability to keep DE under control and IMO he certainly has it.

Magpie:
But the theory here was not that Snape was going to lead the DEs, 
but that he was making himself the #1 wizard of the world by killing 
DD and letting Harry kill Voldemort.  Managing a ragtag group of 
criminals does not qualify for that.  Also I gave you examples in 
canon where the DEs are not that respectful of Snape.  Yes, they 
stand back in this one scene, but as I said I think that's due to 
the situation more than Snape's threat--especially Snape's threat to 
them.  Snape himself has to yell at them to tell them to follow 
orders (the Dark Lord's orders--he appeals to their master).  If 
Voldemort died Snape would, imo, still have to appeal to the idea 
they were doing the Dark Lord's wishes.  Plus, as I said in another 
post, I see no signs that Snape's goal is to take over the world.  
He's a lot of things, but he doesn't seem like a megalomaniac.  If 
he wanted to lead the DEs he could have attempted it earlier.

Alla:
> Sure, they would be different, because instead of Voldemort as 
boss,
> they will have Snape as a boss. 

Magpie:
Voldemort is not their boss.  Voldemort is their Lord.  Without him 
they're just a bunch of free agents, not a gang looking for a boss.  
If Snape was going to attain the level of respect and power 
Dumbledore or Voldemort had, it would take years.

richter_kuymal:
So Snape showing up at the tower AT ALL would be shocking to DD --
because one way or the other Snape has been "outed".  

Magpie:
There's a battle going on in the school.  There is nothing shocking 
about Snape showing up to it.  There is no canon that Dumbledore has 
ordered Snape that if DEs ever attack the castle he has orders to 
stay in his room and pretend to be asleep (presumably even when 
people come to wake him up as they would).  Dumbledore probably 
didn't even have a plan for what to do if DEs got into the school, 
because he thought it was impossible.

richter_kuymal:
And Snape certainly hasn't acted as his ally in the arrival, he 
realizes Snape has betrayed him.

Magpie:
Once more with feeling: SNAPE HAS NOT ACTED IN ANY WAY INCONSISTENT 
WITH BEING AN ALLY OF DUMBLEDORE IN THE ARRIVAL, NOR AT ALL AT THE 
POINT DUMBLEDORE PLEADS WITH HIM.  Not only that, but Dumbledore 
doesn't even have time to decide Snape hasn't acted as an ally in 
his arrival and so think he should plead with him to not betray 
him.  

Snape's arrival is dramatic because everyone in the room thinks 
Snape is an ally who has also convinced the other people he is an 
ally.  

-m