Snape Survey, Snapeity, Dumbledore's sacrifice

[richter_kuymal]

No: HPFGUIDX 149175

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" <tonks_op at ...> wrote:
>> 1. DD trust Snape.  <snip>  2. Lupin trust DD's trusting Snape, 
therefore also trust Snape. 3. Hagrid also trust DD's trust of 
Snape.  
 PAR: sorry, but in RL there are cases of well trusted high security 
folk who are moles for more than 20 years.  These were "trusted by 
all" and had security checks. And they were still bad guys. That DD 
trusted Snape *can* be a mistake on DD's part.  Sometimes people 
blow their "second chance".  That DD was trusted regarding Snape 
only points out that believing because someone ELSE says so is not 
always wise.   .

.
> 4. Snape and DD have a disagreement over something Snape does not 
> what to do.
PAR: which could be anything from watching Malfoy, to helping Harry, 
to continuing to spy, to staying at Hogwarts.  

> 5. Harry is the most important person necessary to vanquish LV.
PAR: a nonsequitur. Harry's importance remains regardless of Snape 
being ESE, OFH, DDM or LID. In and of itself, Harry's importance 
proves nothing one way or the other regarding Snape's actions on the 
Tower.

> 6. DD says that Harry is more important then even he is.
PAR: same as #5 above.

> 7. Snape has protected Harry, has saved Harry at least once and 
does  so again at the end of this book.
PAR: I don't believe that Snape has actually ever "saved" Harry, 
although I agree he's made the effort and may believe he has. The 
difference is if Harry might have managed without Snape.  And LID 
answers Snapes' actions or even an UV that "I'll keep Harry alive to 
fight LV". So again, this doesn't answer as to Snape and DD, only 
Snape and Harry.

 8. DD has drunk the poison and is close to death and needs Snape to 
> cure him.
== and again, this had occured regardless of ESE, OFH or DDman.  So 
it doesn't prove anything. It's not evidence.

> 9. There is no way that Snape can help DD with DE watching.
== sure there was. 
1. he could use a "levicorpus" variant combined with some other 
verbal action and LOWER DD over the tower.  This is the man that 
presumably created hexes as a kid.  (turns to the other DE's:"I've 
been saving that one JUST for DD!). Finds DD on the ground and tries 
to help him. Even if DD dies anyway, Snape has tried to HELP.

2. Destroys the barrier -- either Malfoy or one of the other DEs put 
it up. He's the "DADA teacher".  Leads OOP members to help DD. 

3. Takes out the 4 DEs himself. None of them are aiming at him. 

4. Or follows his orders and stays in his room until summoned. -- 
It's silly to condemn Sirius and others for failing to do what DD 
tells them and then let Snape do it.  

10. DD tries to save Draco. 11. DD says to Draco "it is my mercy 
that matters now"

PAR: again, irrelevant to the Snape issue.  Would DD do anything 
different if Snape were OFH, ESE, DDM or whatever? No, because DD is 
acting on what he believes to be the facts, not what Snape is (or 
isn't) in reality.

 From this we must assume that Snape must maintain his cover as a DE 
> to help Harry.  Otherwise all of those years of being a spy will 
be for nothing.

PAR and staying OUT of the fight altogether is the best way to do 
that.  "LV told me not to interfere" works well.  Even the lie "I 
was fighting Flitwick" works.  Getting involved in the fight AT ALL 
puts the chances of being outed one way or the other to unreasonable 
levels. And if he has to be outed, doing so in a way that will 
virtually ensure Harry will NEVER trust him is not intelligent if 
the plan was for Snape and Harry to work together.  Even the idea of 
Fawkes being on Snape's shoulder (which I find silly) wouldn't do 
it. Fawkes is, when all is said and done, an animal and would no 
more be able to verify truth than a dog.  

 Snape is told that DE are in the castle.  He knows why they are 
> there.  Snape is a man of action, He is not going to sit in his 
> dungeon while the DE and OP battle it out.

PAR: I see. So Snape is doing what he condemned Sirius for? After 
Sirius got killed doing exactly the same thing? After he's SEEN how 
that turns out?  After he's avoided doing things timely (like 
arriving at the DE rally at the graveyard late, etc)? 

the Order members know that he is a 
> double agent and will not expect him to fight on there side.

PAR: actually, they DID expect him to fight on their side.  And they 
were shocked when he didn't.  THEY thought Snape was there to help.
But again, if you are going to out yourself as a double agent by 
showing up, then continuing to act as a double agent is stupid. The 
jig is up the moment Snape shows up at the battle at all. so if he 
comes to the battle, helping the OOP folk won't do any worse damage 
that hasn't already been done by showing up in the first place.

"In order of importance Snape must:  Protect Harry. Keep his own 
> cover.  Protect Draco.  Get the DE out of the castle.  And if 
> possible do all of this with out messing up the curse of the vow.  
> Last on this list, last of all would be helping DD. "

PAR: keeping his cover isn't an issue. He's already blown it one way 
or the other.  If protecting Harry is that critical, he doesn't do 
much for him during the fight downstairs (greyback for example. I 
believe it was Neville who Harry has to thank). And no one made him 
take that vow (or for that matter, rewording the last section 
either. He could have slithered out of it with "If my master wants 
me to", leaving it unclear if DD or LV was his "master" but giving a 
wording neither Bella nor Narcissa could really argue with.
 
> DD is dying from the burnt hand and the poison.
==PAR: lots of people are "dying" and are saved. it does NOT add to 
Snapes cover to kill DD. It destroys his cover because his "spying" 
will no longer be of value.  

PAR: who thinks the look of hate on Snape's face is exactly what it 
appears to be.  The etimology for "Snape" is :snape (v.)  
"to be hard upon, rebuke, snub," c.1300, from O.N. sneypa "to 
outrage, dishonor, disgrace." And Snape does commit "severe outrage".

PAR