[HPforGrownups] Pettigrew as Cedric's murderer (Was: What possessed Peter to restore Voldemort?

[Karen]

No: HPFGUIDX 149434


On Saturday, March 11, 2006, at 12:19 PM, justcarol67 wrote:
>
> Carol again:
>  So why didn't Wormtail, who hates and
> fears LV, make a run for it when he had the chance? It makes no sense
> to me.

kchuplis:

Well, he certainly fears LV but I don't see that he hates him. Wormtail 
loves whoever has the best chance of winning, seems to me. He hedges 
his bets constantly. I don't think he was banking on Barty Jr. coming 
along to steal his glory from being "the only loyal servant" when he 
went looking for LV and by then, he has a pretty good idea that the 
wizard folks fear the most is on his way back and actually, though he 
probably hates the fact that Barty Jr is a better candidate for Golden 
Evil Servant Boy, it also must be clear to him that with clever and 
insane Crouch on hand, LV has an even *better* chance to come back and 
take over. I can't see the Wormtail we've seen all along tossing his 
hands up and turning "good" or even back to a rat. He's actually got 
the same reason to stay. He is one of the ones who came back for LV. 
That hasn't changed. He lives in constant fear, yes, but he always did. 
He might pick up some perks anyway (and he does). Who knows what LV 
offers him? We don't see those scenes. I suspect LV feeds him a LOT of 
B.S. Wouldn't even break a sweat doing it.  Wormtail's self perception 
is a lot like the co-dependent abused spouse/child whatever with a 
smidgen of just plain stoolie thrown in.
>
>
> Carol again:
> I agree that Wormtail is the Agent (a person who acts for another) and
> Voldemort is the Principal, in the sense of "one who employs another
> to act as agent subject to the employer's general control and
> instruction; specifically: the person from whom an agent's authority
> derives" (Merriam-Webster Online, definition c).
>
> However, I'm pretty sure that in a court of law,

kchuplis:

But we aren't talking about a court of law. At least I sure wasn't. I 
was talking about why Harry and DD say LV killed Cedric and how that is 
perceived. Just as Sirius says LV killed Regulas and then amends "or 
rather had him killed". To the WW in general, LV is considered the real 
problem; it's the same difference to the general public. No one, I 
don't think, says Wormtail should be exonerated for anything.  Maybe I 
am missing posts and therefore misconstruing the questions.

carol:
He acted (as far as I can tell) out of fear of retribution, yet
> he was using Voldemort's wand, and Voldemort, a helpless, wandless
> bundle of rags, was at his mercy.

kchuplis:

I don't know. That helpless, wandless bundle of rags was able to put 
Barty Crouch Sr. under an imperious curse and break Bertha Jorkins 
memory charm and various other things. he actually seems to have more 
physical limitations than magical ones. I don't think he's THAT 
helpless or he couldn't have possessed Quirrell, but he isn't the form 
in which he can get around very well and alot of that "self perception" 
is LV's helplessness. I don't see how we keep seeing this "LV is 
helpless". In all honesty, LV was helpless until he had a follower 
nearby, any follower, back. I'm thinking that may very well have been 
more of a psychological helplessness than actual helplessness.

> BTW (to bring up someone else's argument, I think Karen's), Cedric
> counts as one of Voldemort's murders in the graveyard scene only
> because Wormtail used Voldemort's wand. If Wormtail had used his own
> wand, Cedric's shadow would not have been included with the others. So
> that in itself does not make Voldemort the murderer, or the sole
> murderer. It was a team effort, and occurred only because LV gave the
> order *and* Wormtail obeyed it. Wormtail would not have killed Cedric
> on his own initiative, AFAIK, but Voldemort's order alone would not
> have killed him, either. It took the combined actions of Principal and
> Agent to kill him.

kchuplis:

See my earlier comment. I didn't count it as LV's murder because of the 
wand. I was just explaining how I see it that DD and Harry call Cedric 
as being murdered by LV. Again, we aren't AFAIK talking about a legal 
case but the way these events are perceived by the WW. I must have 
missed something. If so, I abjectly apologize to all.
>


Carol:
>  I don't think Wormtail can be exonerated in this instance any
> more than in the deaths of the twelve Muggles he killed to save
> himself and frame his friend.

kchuplis:

? Who is exonerating Wormtail?

> carol:
> IMO, Wormtail is at least as guilty of Cedric's murder as Voldemort
> and should not be exonerated.

kchuplis:
Agreed. Who said he is free of guilt? Not I.

carol:
> Our choices reveal what we are, says
> Dumbledore, and Wormtail's choice to obey Fetus!mort and kill an
> innocent boy reveals him as a scurvy, murdering coward who deserves to
> go to Azkaban for this one crime alone, even without all his other
> evil deeds.

kchuplis:
I agree. I'm not sure I ever saw anyone disagree about that. I have 
apparently misunderstood the question I originally answered in the 
other post because I really didn't think anyone was excusing Pettigrew. 
I thought someone asked why DD and Harry say that LV killed Cedric.