[HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's half truths in "Spinner's End"

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 149456


> Nikkalmati:
However, it seems to me that Snape did
> not know the  nature of Draco's assignment.
>
>  ""If he has forbidden it, you ought not to speak," said Snape  at once . 
> .
> . . "There!" she said triumphantly to her sister. "Even Snape says  so: 
> You
> were told no to talk, so hold your silence!"  But Snape  had gotten to his 
> feet
> and strode to the small window, peered through the  curtains at the 
> deserted
> street, than closed them again with a jerk. . . . "It so happens that I 
> know of
> the plan," (HBP US hardback  edition at 32).  To me the narrator is 
> shouting
> at us - that Snape has  no idea what the plan is.  The conversation has
> reached a dead end.   This is the point where if he is VoldyMan or even if 
> he is DDM
> and knows of the  plan he says drink up and good bye. Yet he looks out the
> window thinking "what are my options here?" I believe, he decides to  take 
> a
> chance in order to elicit more information.

Magpie:
How does this scream he doesn't know the nature of the task?  I just never 
understand how this is supposed to work.  Narcissa is about to tell him what 
the task is.  Snape stops her himself.  Then he says that he already knows 
what it is.  He even, iirc, thoughtfully says that he thinks that "he" 
always intended him to do "it" in the end.  Is he just talking nonsense, 
hoping it fits with the plan?  Because to me that line sounded like a very 
thoughtful line from Snape that loses meaning if he doesn't know what he's 
talking about.

If the point of the vow is that he was trying to find out what the secret 
task is, why doesn't he just let the woman tell him like she was about to 
do?  Why first jump in saying if the Dark Lord says not to speak about it 
she shouldn't and then put his life on the line in an elaborate magical 
contract to find out the information he just refused to listen to a minute 
ago?  Rowling didn't need to write it that way.

On top of that, taking the vow doesn't get him the information anyway! 
Nobody in the scene ever says that Snape now has to kill DD if Draco fails. 
(Granted I had no doubt what the task was not far into the chapter, so I 
naturally assumed Snape did too.)  If his plan was to find out what Draco 
was assigned to do, all he's accomplished is getting himself into a vow 
whereby he's promised to do something under pain of death but has no idea 
what it is he's supposed to do--and the sisters won't tell him because he's 
claimed to already know.  So he's stuck just trying to get Draco to tell him 
or read Draco's mind during the year, something he does not need the UV to 
do and doesn't work anyway!

Nrenka:
Let me simply interject to note that I'm personally wary of labels such as 
'geek' (and by implication, 'jock' and other fellow travelers) in the 
Potterverse.  They have such definite overtones for most of us of American 
high school, but I'm not sure that's a good
model.

Magpie:
Okay, I don't really have anything invested in the word for Snape. It just 
seemed a convenient way to cover Snape feeling disrespected, especially in 
contrast to popular, charismatic James Potter.  He has the resentment of 
someone not blessed with certain social gifts perhaps.

Nrenka:
I see Snape's arrogance in a slightly different streak: he's very, very sure 
of himself to the point of refusing to hear or admit other viewpoints...

Magpie:
Absolutely--but I don't see how the vow really plays out the way that Snape 
holds on to these things--it more seems to just set him up as the fall guy 
again in ways that he's hated in the past.

Nrenka:
the idea that he knows what's going on when everyone else is deluding 
themselves--and that desire to do what no one else can do, to be the spy of 
spies and successfully fool the agents of Voldemort, is what brings him down 
into the trap and forces him to do what he really doesn't want to do.

Magpie:
I think these are three completely different things.  Liking to be the guy 
who is the only one who knows what's going on does not lead to wanting to do 
what no one else can do or be the spy of spies.  I think we've seen evidence 
that Snape *believes* that he knows more than other people and is frustrated 
when they don't believe him and doesn't listen to their pov.  But I haven't 
seen him show signs that he's the kind of guy who would want to be the first 
person to break a UV and live or kill Dumbledore, or be the spy of spies.  I 
think he'd want everybody to appreciate and respect how much they owe him 
and how right he was, but when I imagine his reaction to somebody putting 
his life on the line and risking everything just for doing something that's 
never been done or being King of Spies I picture him thinking that person's 
just the kind of idiot he'll outlive.

Luna:
to this concept I would add: to one's own advantage and gain. To me, being 
manipulative is to make someone else do what you want in order to achieve a 
vile, personal gain. The connotation to me is very negative.

Magpie:
To me it isn't, and I don't add that you must be working for a vile, 
personal gain, so I'm not seeing any reason to not describe some actions of 
Hermione and others as manipulative.  (I believe I have already said that 
while I tossed in Ginny and Harry agreeing that Hermione was smart in terms 
of how to make their relationship work out I was not saying that Hermione 
was being manipulative in giving Ginny advice.)  I haven't been given any 
other alternative words that describe the kind of thing I'm describing to my 
satisfaction, and the main objection to "manipulative" seems to be that many 
people consider the word unflattering, therefore it shouldn't be used in 
connection to "good" characters.  I don't have that problem with it (or 
devious), so I'm still happy with it.

I have said that I don't look forward to "punishment" for Hermione in the 
future either.

-m