[HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione must be stopped/Snape's half truths in "Spinner's End"

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 149481

Ceridwen:
I kind of like 'finesse'.

Magpie:
Designing has some style.:-)

And now back to SNAPE SNAPE SNAPE!

pudhuhepa:
> Clearly,  if dear Bella weren't standing right there, Snape would let
> Narcissa go on and  tell him everything.  He can't allow that to happen
> because Bella
> already  distrusts him and "The Dark Lord's word is law" (or should be if
> I
> am a loyal  DE).

Magpie:
It's not unusual for a Death Eater to want to know the the big secret plan 
and so let Narcissa blab it to him if he can.  Snape's letting Narcissa 
speak doesn't make him look any more untrustworthy than he already does in 
her own disagraced eyes.

Miles:
Because Bellatrix is listening, and because he is not sure whether anyone 
else is listening. ... If you want information, it is sometimes good not to 
let the informant know that he gives something to you. That's what he is 
trying to do: let Narcissa tell him the task, without letting her and 
particularly Bellatrix know that he didn't know it before. It turns out that 
he is too clever here, but his strategy is not stupid -it just, but only 
just, failed.

Magpie:
I'm afraid I think the strategy is far more stupid than you do.  Pretending 
to be just seconds too slow to stop Narcissa from speaking vs. getting 
locked into a death vow?

I don't understand why it's so gosh darned important that Snape not let 
Bella and Narcissa not know they gave him information--important on pain of 
death so he's willing to take an unknown UV rather than risk it.  Especially 
since I still don't see the connection between taking the vow and getting 
the information as being so direct or strong.  Why would he think taking the 
vow would get him the info?  I'm trying to picture him explaining it: Well, 
I didn't know what the task was, so I took a UV!

Do you know what the task is now?

No, I don't.  But if I got a death sentence if I don't complete it--that's a 
good start!

Here's a much easier way for Snape to get the info without letting the women 
know they've given it to him.  Let Narcissa finish her sentence, and then 
tell her she should have kept her mouth shut, but luckily you already know 
about the vow.

It's not that I can't imagine Snape being tricky enough to want to get info 
without letting anyone realize they're giving him new information, but not 
to the point of getting into a vow to do it.  Same thing he does, only a few 
seconds later, and without the UV.

puduhepa:
> When he says "he means me to do it in the  end"  that underscores that he
> hasn't a clue what "IT" is - otherwise he  would say:  "I think he means
> me
> to kill the old man in the end."

Magpie:
I don't see that it underscores anything except that we, the readers, don't 
know what the vow is.  There's really nothing remarkable about Snape's 
saying "it" instead of saying the whole plan. In fact, there's a very good 
reason Snape is not saying it outright that has nothing to do with himself: 
the author's trying to keep it from the reader.  I'm also surprised he isn't 
now trying to get the ladies to talk a bit more about the task, given that 
he's now ordered to perform it under pain of death and still has no idea 
what it is.

puduhepa:
> That sentence also betrays that LV has not asked Snape to do "it" but
> Snape
> has surmised that was the intent.

Magpie:
I don't see how it betrays this information, since nobody in the scene is 
under the impression that LV asked Snape to do the task--everyone knows he
hasn't.  That's why they're all there, because LV has commanded Draco Malfoy 
to do the task.  Besides which, what has Snape surmised that it is LV's
intent for him to do if he doesn't know what's going on?

Miles:
Narcissa told him that Draco won't be able to succeed, and she asked him for 
help. He just takes the information she gave him and draws conclusions.
Draco won't be able to succeed = the task is difficult, Narcissa asks him to 
help Draco = he would have better chances. Nothing magical or mysterious
here.

Magpie:
Oh, so the line is more empty than it came across to me in canon. To me (and 
I wish I had it with me so I could check) the line about "He's always 
intended for me to do it in the end" stood out as meaning more than it 
seemed, not less.  But you're saying, if I understand you, that Snape is 
just still bluffing saying, "Oh, Voldemort always intended for me to do this 
task in the end," still not knowing what the task is, and the line is more 
directed to the women than to himself.  I hate to lose my important line, 
but without the book in front of me I can't look for any reasons why this 
interpretation doesn't work.

puduhepa:>
> I am not convinced LV is behind the vow.  Why  would he need to set Snape
> up when he can call him in and say "if Draco does not  do his job, you do
> it
> or you are a dead man."  Just as effective as a UV,  yes?

Magpie:
Err...I don't think LV is behind the vow either.  Not sure where that came 
from.  I think Snape's "HE means for me to do IT" is Snape saying
that he thinks LV (or DD) always meant for Snape to kill Dumbledore 
eventually.  He (LV) doesn't really expect Draco to do it, but Snape, who 
knows that Dumbledore would eventually always have to die in Voldemort's 
plan, believes that LV has long planned for Snape (his agent in Hogwarts who 
has been DD's trusted companion for years) to kill Dumbledore.  So I thought 
Snape was flat out saying that he thinks that eventually his double agent 
days would be set up against DD in this way.  The line stuck out to me as 
important in just that way, as Snape seeing that destiny looming into view.

Miles:
Refusing the vow would be a very suspicious thing to do. Just think what 
Bellatrix would do.

Magpie:
Okay, what would Bellatrix do?   Isn't Bella absolutely shocked that he 
agrees to it?  What would be so shocking about his not agreeing to go into a 
UV with Narcissa Malfoy?  I imagine Bellatrix would just say "of course you 
won't do it, you slither out of actions!" which is how she already feels. 
I'd imagine most DEs would refuse the vow.

Miles:
And the first and second part of the vow are no big
problem, only the third is. He hesitates before this part, but there is no 
way out. It's the end of the spinner - Snape tried to be very clever, but he
got trapped in his own cobweb.

Magpie:
And why doesn't he just not take the third part of the vow?  As I said 
elsewhere, I see no reason he couldn't not agree to do the task for the same 
reason that gets repeated over and over at the end of the book: The Dark 
Lord wants Draco to do it.

I guess it just seems far less dramatic to me to think that this vow, the 
thing that sets the whole book in motion, is just an oopsie! by Snape based 
around the not-so-compelling reason of not wanting Bella and Cissy to know 
he doesn't know about the task beforehand.  I get the feeling of destiny at 
work in that second chapter, and Snape knowing it.

Magda:
He doesn't know what he's talking about but he THINKS he does.  This is how 
the DADA curse plays out for Snape: the curse brings out the
worst in each DADA professor in the series.  What's "the worst" in Snape? 
His tendency to jump to conclusions.

Magpie:
Oh.  So this is a slightly different scenario.  Snape isn't trying to get 
information from Bella and Cissy; he's not bluffing when he thinks he knows 
the task.  He just has the wrong idea about the task.  We just never are 
never told what Snape thought he was vowing to do and how he found out 
otherwise.

Magda:
IMO Snape never did know what Draco's task was - not until the very climax 
of the book at the top of the tower. He spent all year assuming that Draco's 
task was to kill HARRY and then trying to keep
the two of them apart so that Draco wouldn't have the chance.

Magpie:
Ah!  There's the story, though we're still not told it in canon.  I can't 
honestly say I see any evidence for this in the book.  There are no scenes 
of Snape actively keeping Harry and Draco apart that I can remember, and 
Harry's following Draco around, not vice versa.  You'd think if he was 
watching them Snape would notice that.  And notice that the bottle of 
poisoned wine was supposed to be for DD.  Harry doesn't even drink wine.

Magda:
And I think when he left Dumbledore pondered
the situation, considered his own knowledge of Tom Riddle and came to the 
correct conclusion: that Voldemort wants to kill Harry himself and that the 
subject of Draco's task was himself.

And he decided not to tell Snape but let him go on thinking that Harry was 
the target.

Magpie:
Whoa!  The thing going on that we don't see at all is getting more 
complicated.  Since we don't see any beats of this story, I don't see how 
they really make up the plot of the book.

So if Snape didn't realize what he was supposed to do until he's on the 
tower, you're saying that he shows up and looks around, sees Draco there 
with the DEs and DD, doesn't see Harry there, and then realizes who he's 
supposed to kill according to the vow?

I'm afraid I've got the same problem with this as I do to the scenario where 
DD realizes here that Snape has betrayed him.  There's no moment of 
realization for Snape.  I don't recall him having any change between looking 
around and striding forward, knocking Draco out of the way.  I'd think he'd 
need a moment to process the information he's been wrong all along.  A 
moment of confusion and dawning understanding that he's got to kill this 
guy--and time to decide if he's going to.

Magda:
And DD's stern warning that Snape had agreed to the Vow and would have to 
honour it probably shocked Snape who couldn't reconcile it with Dumbledore's 
apparent care for the boy.

Magpie:
Dangerous game that DD's playing there, giving Snape orders to kill Harry 
Potter.  He's lucky Snape didn't fulfill that vow in a fit of temper many 
times throughout the year.

Another thing surprising about it is that I'd expect Snape to be angrier 
than ever at Harry if the vow was over him.  I think JKR would write in 
moments in their interactions connected to Snape's vow.

-m