Hermione must be stopped, ...-Hermione's Crimes

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 149509

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03"
<horridporrid03 at ...> wrote:
>
> > >>bboyminn:
> > I can't help but notice that you are very selectively missing 
> > the point. This is about 'right' and 'wrong'. If Hermione did
> > the 'right' thing in turning Rita over to the adult authorities,
> > then the effects would have been crushingly devestating to Rita.
> > It would have been prison and the ruin of her  career. That is 
> > no small thing.
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> You've just described blackmail.  If you don't do what I wish, you 
> will be hurt.  If you don't pay me X amount of dollars, I'll tell 
> your wife about your mistress.  So yes, Hermione gives Rita a 
> choice: go to Azkaban for your crime, or give up your career for
> a year.  

bboyminn:

Once again both Betsy and Magda are selectively missing the point. The
point is about 'right' and 'wrong'. I'm saying that Hermione doing the
 'right' thing with respect to the law and Rita is infinitely more
devestating that Hernione doing the 'wrong' thing. The point is about
motivation to action, not the results of the action.

Rita broke the law. Hermione knows Rita broke the law. The 'right'
thing to do is for Hermione to turn Rita into the authorities which
will substantially ruin Rita's entire life from a career prespective.
No one would be likely to every trust her again, and her secret
disguise (bug animagus) would be more likely to get her killed than
get her a story. Plus, there is always that nasty bit of prison time
Rita would have to serve. 

> Betsy Hp:
>
> Obviously what Hermione wanted Rita to do was a better choice 
> than prison, otherwise the blackmail wouldn't have worked.  (That 
> Rita had no income for a year is, of course, not something a high 
> school girl would really think about.  Especially a high school 
> girl of Hermione's comfortable background.)
> 
> > >>bboyminn:
> > Further, Hermione isn't backmailing Rita for personal gain. She
> > is trying to stop Rita from telling lies. That's hardly 
> > blackmail in the traditional sense; 'be a good moral person, or
> > go to prison'.  Isn't that the same 'blackmail' that all laws 
> > put on all citizens? 
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> This is a nice way to spin it.  But Hermione stops Rita from working 
> for a year as a *punishment* to "break the habit of writing horrible 
> lies about people."  Instead of saying, "don't lie".  She's, in 
> effect, sending Rita to her room without supper.  For a year.  So 
> Hermione *is* acting as a judge here.
> 
> ...
> 

bboyminn:

First, turning someone in for commiting a crime is NOT blackmail.
Second, offerring them a moral alternative, in a sense a second
chance, is not blackmail. Once again, Hermione is not doing this for
personal gain. Blackmail is when you say to some one, pay me 'X'
amount of money or I'll tell the world you did THIS. For Hermione
there is no 'X' amount of money. Hermione gains nothing and Rita gains
a valuable lesson in morals and ethics.

Further, there is nothing to stop Rita from working. She's not in
prison or crippled. She simply can't earn her living by writing. She
could even work for the paper in a clerical capacity. Further, she
could take that year off and write the 'Great British Novel' she has
always dreamed about. So, unless she chooses to, Rita is not going to
starve, and clearly while she is a bit down on her luck when we see
her again, she is not starving. 

> > >>bboyminn:
> > Let's use the example of the Philosopher's Stone. What Harry 
> > did was 'wrong'. McGonagall specifically told him to go to bed
> > and let the adults handle it. If Harry did the 'right' thing, 
> > he would haveobeyed. He would have been snug in his bed being
> > an obedient little boy, and the Stone would like have been lost. 
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Ooh, bad example, Steve!  How would the Stone have been lost?  Harry 
> doesn't *save* the Stone.  ...
> 
> If, on the other hand, Harry had stayed in bed, Quirrell!Mort would 
> have remained stuck in front of the mirror for Dumbledore to catch.  
> ...
> 

bboyminn:

Once again, selectively missing the point. This whole discussion is
about Hermione's 'crimes', and the 'right' or 'wrong' of her actions.
The result of those actions is not in dispute. What is in dispute is
the moral motivation and correctness of instigating those actions.

In this example, whether Harry saved the Stone or not is irrelevant to
the 'right' or 'wrong' of his choosing to act. By a Moral Absolutest
view, what Harry did was 'wrong'. McGonagall specifically told him to
go to bed and let the adults handle it. He did not, therefore he is
'wrong'. 

Yet it is a chance for him to bravely confront Quirrel and Voldemort
and to a certain extent, beat them again. It was an act of high moral
fiber and courage for Harry even though it was technically wrong. This
seems to be the position that Dumbledore takes on the matter. He
doesn't punish Harry for doing what was 'wrong' because he knows
Harry's motivations for doing so were 'right'.

The same is true of Hermione. She does the technically 'wrong' thing
but for the 'right' reason.

Once again, I say, let us ask Rita which she prefers? Hermione does
the 'right' thing, and substantial imprisons and damages Rita for a
lifetime, or Hermione does the 'wrong' thing and Rita is
inconvenienced for a while. 

> Betsy HP:
>
> However, to go towards your main point that Hermione was just
> trying to save the world here just like Harry always does, I have
> to disagree.  Hermione twists the knife.  Harry does what he had
> to do, but Hermione *ruins* a womans life.  ...
> 
> > >>bboyminn:
> > Back to Hermione, I don't see how anyone can say that Hermione     
> > wasn't merciful in her actions regarding Rita.
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Out of curiosity, if you were told to not work for a year, starting 
> immediately, how would you do?  Any house payments you'd have 
> trouble making?  ... You're healthy, I hope?  ...
> 
> Rita looks a bit ragged in OotP.  Hermione is not only uncaring, 
> she's very strict about Rita working without payment.  The rage Rita 
> was barely keeping back suggested, to me anyway, that Hermione would 
> not want Rita to ever get her alone to throughly "thank" Hermione 
> for her "mercy".  
> 
> Actually, what Hermione does to Rita parallels what Umbridge does to 
> Lupin quite nicely.  (I think Redhen has an essay on this.)
> 
> Betsy Hp

bboyminn:

Once again, Rita's life is not ruined. In fact, I again remind you
that if Hermione had been a moral absolutest, she would have turned
Rita in , and THEN Rita's life WOULD have been ruined. But Hermione
offers her a second chance. I chance to take a break and gain some
prespective on the consequences of her actions. A little reminder that
Rita is ruining people's lives with the lies she tells. Time to remind
Rita that the 'highest moral value' is not measured by how many papers
you sell. 

Further, it is Hermione that restarts Rita's career. Yes, she does it
by her absolute insistance that Rita tell the truth about Harry and
Voldemort's return. But that turns out to be the 'article of the
year'. The most important, significant, crucial, and truthfull article
printed for that entire year. Rita is a celebrity again. 

She now appears to be the one journalist who wasn't intimidate by the
Ministry. She appears to be the one journalist who sought out truth
over propaganda and dare to bring it forth. By her apparent 'wrong'
actions, Hermione has made Rita into a hero again; at least in
journalistic circles. 

I'm sure it will be short lived, but I have no doubt that Rita is
making the party circuit regaling everyone with boastful tale of how
she stuggle against the odds and unrelentingly sought out the truth
from her 'good friend' Harry Potter, and dared to print it at great
personal risk. I can't prove that, but it is certainly Rita's style.

Twice by her seemingly 'wrong' actions, Hermione has done Rita a BIG
FAVOR. 

So, I close by once again saying that we should ask Rita what she
thinks about Hermione's actions. Hermione does the 'right' thing and
cause immense damage to Rita. Hermione does the 'wrong' thing and Rita
is annoyingly inconvenienced and later becomes a hero. Think what you
will, but I think in Rita's eyes, Hermione made the right choice.

Just passing it along.

Steve/bboyminn