Hermione must be stopped / Crime and Punishment

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 149571

> >>bboyminn:
> Once again both Betsy and Magda are selectively missing the point. 
> The point is about 'right' and 'wrong'. I'm saying that Hermione   
> doing the 'right' thing with respect to the law and Rita is       
> infinitely more devestating that Hernione doing the 'wrong' thing.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I guess I'm not really getting your point. (I'm seriously not 
missing it on purpose.)  Yes, it would be hasher on Rita if Hermione 
had merely turned her in.  The blackmail only works because this is 
true.  If Hermione wasn't offering a better alternative Rita 
wouldn't have felt obligated to follow Hermione's orders.  Every 
single blackmail has this simple truth at its heart.  Following the 
orders of the blackmailer is less painful than the "or else" being 
threatened.

> >>bboyminn:
> Rita broke the law. Hermione knows Rita broke the law. The 'right'
> thing to do is for Hermione to turn Rita into the authorities which
> will substantially ruin Rita's entire life from a career          
> prespective.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Yes, this is true.  I guess it could be labled as the "right" action 
for Hermione to take.  Certainly it leaves her a little less tainted 
than her chosen course of action, legally in any case.  Ethically 
it's a bit stickier, I think.  Mainly because Hermione is acting out 
of a sense of vengence (mild and understandable, but vengence, none 
the less) and it *would* ruin Rita.  For a time anyway.  (Though one 
could argue that Rita made her bed...)

> >>bboyminn:
> First, turning someone in for commiting a crime is NOT blackmail.

Betsy Hp:
Yes of course.  I don't think anyone was arguing this.

> >>bboyminn:
> Second, offerring them a moral alternative, in a sense a second
> chance, is not blackmail.

Betsy Hp:
Erm, yes it is.  Anytime you tell someone, do this or I'll spill 
your secrets, you're blackmailing them.  I don't care if the action 
you ask for is to give all your money to charity or to make balloon 
animals for sick children.  You are using information and a threat 
to expose that information to make someone do as *you wish*.  The 
muggle version of Imperius, if you will.

> >>bboyminn:
> Once again, Hermione is not doing this for personal gain.
> <snip> 
> Hermione gains nothing and Rita gains a valuable lesson in morals 
> and ethics.

Betsy Hp:
First of all, I'm amused whenever someone posits that either Rita or 
Marietta learned an important moral lesson from Hermione.  Is there 
*any* textual evidence for this?  Rita seemed angry more than 
anything.  And going by Cho's little rant to Harry, Marietta had 
similar feelings.

Second, Hermione did gain something.  She gained the little thrill 
you get when someone who's hurt you is made to pay.  Plus the thrill 
of knowing she took on an adult and won.  Reread the scene where she 
reveals all to Harry and Ron.  Hermione is practically giddy with 
her success.

> >>bboyminn:
> Further, there is nothing to stop Rita from working. She's not in
> prison or crippled. She simply can't earn her living by writing.   
> She could even work for the paper in a clerical capacity. Further, 
> she could take that year off and write the 'Great British Novel'   
> she has always dreamed about. So, unless she chooses to, Rita is   
> not going to starve, and clearly while she is a bit down on her    
> luck when we see her again, she is not starving. 

Betsy Hp:
See, this strikes me as a bit too flippant.  Rita hasn't had time to 
prepare to lose her normal income.  Maybe she has something saved to 
last her a year, but in general people don't.  And while she could 
possibly get another job (if Hermione let her) I think we shouldn't 
overlook how ragged she looks by GoF.  Whatever Rita is doing to get 
by, it's not up to her usual standards.  Proud women like Rita don't 
let themselves go like that unless they're really are close to 
starving, or losing their homes.

> > > >>bboyminn:
> > > Let's use the example of the Philosopher's Stone. What Harry 
> > > did was 'wrong'. McGonagall specifically told him to go to bed
> > > and let the adults handle it. If Harry did the 'right' thing, 
> > > he would haveobeyed. He would have been snug in his bed being
> > > an obedient little boy, and the Stone would like have been     
> > > lost. 

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > Ooh, bad example, Steve!  How would the Stone have been lost?    
> > Harry doesn't *save* the Stone.  ...
> > If, on the other hand, Harry had stayed in bed, Quirrell!Mort   
> > would have remained stuck in front of the mirror for Dumbledore 
> > to catch.  

> >>bboyminn:
> Once again, selectively missing the point.

Betsy Hp:
Perhaps a better example would be helpful?  One in which doing 
the "wrong" thing actually saves the day where the "right" thing 
would have lost it.

> >>bboyminn:
> This whole discussion is about Hermione's 'crimes', and           
> the 'right' or 'wrong' of her actions. The result of those actions 
> is not in dispute. What is in dispute is the moral motivation and 
> correctness of instigating those actions.
> <snip of how the example is supposed to work>
> The same is true of Hermione. She does the technically 'wrong'     
> thing but for the 'right' reason.

Betsy Hp:
What right reason?  Obviously you feel some great moral message has 
been handed down from on high.  I see a little girl, cleverer than 
most, taking petty vengence on someone who's hurt her.  It certainly 
doesn't help Harry, nor does it change how reporters write their 
pieces.  Actually, it's in Rita's absence that the articles turn 
particulary ugly for Harry and Dumbledore.  (Unless Hermione is 
prescient and somehow "knows" she'll need a reporter in her pocket 
next year.)

Harry's motivations for going after the Stone were head and 
shoulders above Hermione's in selflessness and nobility.  Harry was 
preparing to risk his life to prevent evil from returning.  Hermione 
was getting revenge.  She may have coated it in teaching Rita an 
important moral lesson, but she's tainted herself with her methods.  
And she deliberately causes Rita pain.  Rita is not allowed to write 
for year, not an "I'll be watching and be sure you tell the truth", 
but a "no writing for a year".  That's punishment for the sake of 
vengence.  Very little noble in that.  (As Harry realizes 
instinctually with Peter Pettigrew a year before Hermione's little 
dabble in the dark side.) 

> >>bboyminn:
> Once again, I say, let us ask Rita which she prefers? Hermione does
> the 'right' thing, and substantial imprisons and damages Rita for a
> lifetime, or Hermione does the 'wrong' thing and Rita is
> inconvenienced for a while. 

Betsy Hp:
And again I say, duh.  *Obviously* Rita prefers being at Hermione's 
beck and call to prison.  Otherwise she'd have told Hermione to go 
stuff herself and faced the prison time.  Once again: THIS IS HOW 
BLACKMAIL WORKS!  Forgive me if I don't give Hermione a pass just 
because she's a successful blackmailer.

> >>bboyminn:
> <snip>
> Further, it is Hermione that restarts Rita's career.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Hoo boy!  Now forgive me if I don't jump up and down and say yay 
Hermione for jumpstarting the career of the woman who's career 
*Hermione put on hold*.

> >>bboyminn:
> Rita is a celebrity again.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp
An *unpaid* celebrity. 

> >>bboyminn:
> Twice by her seemingly 'wrong' actions, Hermione has done Rita a   
> BIG FAVOR.  
> So, I close by once again saying that we should ask Rita what she
> thinks about Hermione's actions.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
We don't have to ask Rita.  JKR shows us.  Rita doesn't appear to 
share your view.  One could almost call her view of Hermione to be a 
bit negative.

> >>Debbie: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/149542

> <snip>
> I suspect if we polled the list, the same people who are troubled 
> with Hermione's vigilanteism were troubled by, for example, the   
> Ton-Tongue Toffee incident.  We never resolved that one, and we    
> aren't going to resolve this one either.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I'll agree with SSSusan in agreeing with you, Debbie. <g>  Because, 
yeah, not a fan of comeuppance and not a fan of the twins and not a 
fan of this side of Hermione.

> >>Debbie:
> After HBP, I began to wonder if Hermione already *had* her moment
> comeuppance out there in the Forbidden Forest facing the wrath of 
> the centaurs.  Because it was a short-lived failure, since Grawp  
> came to save the day, and of course it immediately followed her   
> success with Umbridge, her failure is easy to miss.
> However, in HBP we see a more chastened Hermione.  She has lost her
> overconfidence.  She's still manipulative, as her Confundus on    
> McLaggen shows, but she's less successful on the whole.  Harry    
> challenges her on the Confundus, and her attempt to make Ron      
> jealous is a complete failure.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp
Ooh, I *like* this Debbie!  Perhaps Hermione's turn around could be 
symbolically linked to her getting punched in the eye by the 
twins "little joke"  (there's an irony there, I suspect <g>) in HBP. 
It's soon after this that Hermione has her first big failure in 
Burgess and Burkes.  And it's pretty much downhill from there.

So yeah, the Centaurs are Hermione's "big mistake" and after that, 
her attempts at manipulation tend to backfire on her.  I can live 
with that.

I still wonder if there's another shoe to drop with Marietta, 
though.  Mainly because JKR highlights the fact that she's still 
sporting her brand.  

Betsy Hp