LID!Snape rides again (was: High Noon for OFH!Snape)

[Neri]

No: HPFGUIDX 149587

> Sydney: 
> Okay, this needs to be cleared up before we can go any further.  As
> I'm using the term 'magical compulsion', the UV ISN'T one.  It doesn't
> affect Snape's psychology, it just means on a bare practical level
> he'll die if he doesn't do this certain thing.  So it's like, for
> instance, the SNEAK hex-- it didn't affect Marietta's thinking, it
> just had this physical effect when it kicks in.  I'm contrasting that
> to the 'psychological' magics-- the House-Elf enslavement, Love
> Potions, Imperius.  Those spells directly seem to control the BRAIN of
> the victim in pretty crude ways.  Inicidentally, this goes with my
> objections to the DADA curse nudging the victim to display their worst
> traits by some subtle, internal means, too.  So, which one are you
> proposing the Life Debt falls into?  Is this a House-Elfy compulsion
> to serve the Life-Debtee, or is it like the UV, where if the victim
> fails in the terms of the injuncition, something physical happens to
> them?  If it's the first, then I don't see it at all.  If you're
> proposing the second-- that the Life Debt actually does something to
> the Debtor if they fail it-- that's a different kettle of fish.
> 

Neri:
There are many possibilities regarding the exact nature of the Life
Debt. One possibility indeed takes the UV as its model, and proposes
that the Life-Debtee would die if he kills, or is a part of killing,
the person he owes the Debt to. For more details about this version see:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/139110
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/140493

This speculation has some very attractive features, but it's hardly
the only speculation, and having many different Life Debt speculations
doesn't pose much of a problem for LID!Snape. It's actually similar to
the situation with LOLLIPOPS. There are probably as many versions of
the Snape/Lily SHIP as there are Snape/Lily SHIPpers (possibly more).
You know, maybe it was only a platonic relationship, or maybe it was
platonic on Lily's side but not on Severus' side. Maybe it was a hot
romance for a time, maybe it was a completely one-sided secret
admiration, maybe it was Lily who was the admirer while Snape wasn't
actually interested (yes, this version was proposed too. I seem to
remember it even has an official acronym in TBAY, although I'm too
lazy to search for it now). These differences can be quite important
for the details, but in general most of these variations would
probably work in a similar way with the plot. We can't really know now
which version is true since we have approximately zero information,
but this has never bothered any S/L SHIPper that I could see. The good
ship LOLLIPOPS has always been open to all variations of S/L, and I
don't remember anybody claiming it made her weaker.

The situation with LID is similar. There can be many optional versions
of the Life Debt magic and Snape would come out slightly different in
each version, same as he would come out slightly different in each
version of LOLLIPOPS. We can't really know now because we have as
little information about the Life Debt magic as we have about the
Snape/Lily relationship, but plotwise all Life Debt variations would
probably work in a similar way.

The one big difference in the situation of LOLLIPOPS and LID is that
we don't even have canon that a relationship (of any kind) between
Lily and Snape ever *existed*. In contrast, whatever Life Debt
variation you prefer we do have some good canon that Snape owed James
a Life Debt.

> Sydney: 
> And, (I don't have my books with me, but off the top of my head),
> Dumbledore testifies in court-- the sort of thing I presume he swore
> an oath to -- that Snape came over to OUR side before V-morts fall,

Neri:
But he doesn't say *why* Snape came over to our side. However, he did
tell us that James saved Snape's life, and that Snape tried to save
Harry's life in SS/PS because of his "debt" to James. So I ask you
again – doesn't this imply Snape owed a Life Debt to James? And what
part did this Debt play in Snape coming over to "our" side?

> that "he's now no more a Death Eater than I am".  

Neri:
Even if Dumbledore had testified under oath (which we don't know for a
fact) I doubt that this particular statement was part of his
testimony. We know that Snape has an active dark mark, so either
Dumbledore means here that he (Dumbledore) also has an active dark
mark, or we must conclude that Dumbledore words (warning: big surprise
coming) should be taken with a grain of salt.

> Sydney:
And Harry asks him
> in HBP, "How can you be sure Snape's on OUR side?", and D-dore says,
> "I'm sure.  I trust Severus Snape completely".  He's saying, he's on
> OUR side.  Meaning, yours and mine.  Our.  Side.

Neri:
"*Your* side, because he has to save your life. *My* side, because he
has to save *your* life". Dumbledore wouldn't consider his own life as
part of the deal. It's Harry that matters.

The Dumbledore in LID is similar to the Dumbledore in DDM in that he's
absolutely ready to give his life for the plan. The difference is that
the Dumbledore of LID is a more moral man. He'd never want Snape to be
a killer. He *trusts* Snape not to be a killer, not in the sense that
he's 100% sure Snape wouldn't do it, but in the sense that he puts his
trust in Snape, that he leaves the choice to Snape. But if Snape
chooses *not* to justify this trust – Dumbledore's plan still works,
because Snape is still InDebted. The fact the Dumbledore would die in
such case is, for Dumbledore, immaterial.

It's moral *and* devious. No wonder Snape was furious.


> Sydney:
  This is another
> argument that he's not actually saying he trusts Snape completely when
> he says he trusts.. Snape ... completely... I dunno.  I think you're
> clipping bits off the jigsaw-piece here.
> 

Neri:
I remind you we're talking about the person who said "I trust Severus
Snape, but I forgot
 that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I
thought professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father
-  I was wrong."

Evidently, Dumbledore saying he trusts Snape doesn't necessarily mean
there isn't a but somewhere in there. A but that in certain
circumstances might turn out to be a pretty big BUT. 


> Sydney: 
> I still find Dumbledore's "Severus... please..." simply to not
> fit in with this theory.  You say, he's asking Snape not to forget the
> Life Debt.  But why would D-dore need to PLEAD for Snape not to forget
> some sort of deadly magical compulsion that's been driving him for
> over a decade? 

Neri:
Because whatever the moral/magical mechanism of the Life Debt will
turn out to be, for Dumbledore the moral meaning would always take
first place. Dumbledore wants Snape to save Harry because it's the
right thing to do, not because Snape is magically forced to.

The Dumbledore of LID doesn't plead with Snape to pay the Debt for the
sake of the plan (which would probably work anyhow) but for the sake
of Snape's soul.  

> Sydney:
> Wouldn't he be using the 'stern and terrible' voice
> he used to Petunia?  

Neri:
No. Snape isn't Petunia. And like I said, Dumbledore is pleading for
Snape's sake, not for Harry's sake.
 
> Sydney:
> Why would D-dore be so upset when he was telling
> Harry that he couldn't imagine the remorse Snape felt when he found
> out the targets?  Seeing as by the LD theory Dumbledore's being kind
> of cute here, wouldn't he be calm or even downright twinkly?

Neri:
No. This is a matter of Snape's soul. Dunbledore would hardly been
twinkly. Being upset here further suggests that Dumbledore wasn't so
sure what would be Snape's choice after all.

> Sydney:
> Why would D-dore send Harry to get Snape and no one but Snape when he
> was incapacitated by a poison?

Neri:
Because Snape was the only person who could save him, and in addition
to Dumbledore preferring to stay alive if possible, Snape must be
given the choice.


> Sydney:
And where does the bit where Snape is
> described as being in as much pain as a dog on fire fit in with Snape
> having no problem AK-ing D-dore?

Neri:
But Snape scorned Harry's inability to use an Unforgivable just the
minute before. Doesn't look like he had any problem doing that
immediately after he AK'ed Dumbledore. 

*When* does Snape haul with pain? It's when Harry shouts at him "kill
me like you killed him". And I agree with Pippin that Snape was
probably interpreting "him" to be James, not Dumbledore. It was Snape
himself, after all, who had brought up James into this conversation
just the moment before. Twice, in fact. Harry doesn't even mention
Dumbledore's name at all. It's the thought about killing Harry like he
he was responsible for the killing of James that makes Snape haul in
pain. Smells like a one piece of strong Magic to me. Probably much
stronger than that dark mark scar that was givind Snape pains in GoF. 

> Sydney:
Or the bit where Snape's face is
> suffused with hatred and revulsion, gee, JUST like Harry's was when he
> was force-feeding D-dore the poison?  

Neri:
Er... where exactly is it written that Harry felt hatred towards
Dumbledore in the cave?

The explicit repetition here is that when Snape stands above Harry,
his "pale face, illuminated by the flaming cabin, was suffused with
hatred just as it had been before he had cursed Dumbledore." So Snape
felt towards Dumbledore what he feels towards Harry, and I don't think
it was tender feelings. 

> Sydney:
Of course he's cold and angry
> and jeering.  That's Snape's defense mechanism.  Hating Harry and
> James is totally Snape's defense mechanism.

Neri:
It's a defense mechanism that has never made much sense to me if Snape
is DDM. A person has such a strong remorse about his part in making
some boy an orphan, and he doesn't miss an opportunity to show his
hatred to this orphan and to his dead father? It hasn't been just a
defense mechanism for Snape, it's been a sport. His favorite pastime.
Doesn't strikes me like a very believable characterization on JKR's
part. But if Snape owes a Life Debt to James and is forced to protect
Harry, then I find Snape's hatred and anger totally believable.   

Throughout "The Flight of the Prince" all of Snape's behavior, if he's
LID, is completely straightforward. His scorn of Harry's inability to
use an Unforgivable, his anger, his hatred, bringing up James, his
strange hauling in pain when killing Harry is mentioned, saving Harry
from the Crucio – all fit with LID *perfectly*.  

> Sydney:
And the next thing he has
> to do is apparate on over to V-mort and talk him out of offing Draco.
>  He has to have the Occlumency shields at full power for the
> foreseeable future.  It cracks for a second-- dog on fire-- and he
> refocuses by concentrating on the James/Harry hatred.
> 

Neri:
Ah, I knew the "Snape is acting" argument is going to come up soon.


Neri