LID!Snape rides again (was: High Noon for OFH!Snape)

[Neri]

No: HPFGUIDX 149691

> > >Sydney:
> > > Sophist!Dumbledore is a bit of a joker, isn't he?  
> > 
> > Neri:
> > Yes! Couldn't put it better myself <g>.

> Sydney:
> How amusing of him to joke around with everone's lives like that!  You
> still have to assume that every single time Dumbledore assured any
> Order member that he trusted Snape, every single time he "wouldn't
> hear a word against him", your theory has to narrow down each and
> every off-stage conversation so that it is principally about Harry.
 
> So, no conversation could ever have taken place where, say, Lupin
> would ask, "Snape know an awful lot about what I'm doing with the
> werewolves, and he hates my guts, I'm a bit worried-- are you sure I
> can trust him?"  And Dumbledore would say "Ho ho ho, oh yes- of
> course, I trust Snape completely."  *snigger*  And then in a stage
> whisper joker!Dumbledore would say, "Hee!  I mean, with Harry, of
> course!"  


Neri:
Very funny, but I really don't see why you had to resort to fanfiction
here, when we can so easily convict that irresponsible joker,
Sophist!Dumbledore, with hard canon:


****************************
Harry: did Professor McGonagall told you what I told her after Katie
was hurt? About Draco Malfoy?

Dumbledore: She told you of your suspicions, yes.

Harry: and do you – 

Dumbledore: I shall take all appropriate measures to investigate
anyone who might have had a hand in Katie's accident".
***************************

Neri:
I like the term "Katie's accident" here. By this time Dumbledore knows
Draco is trying to do him in, and has quite enough reason to suspect
he was involved in Katie's "accident". And yet he doesn't even bother
warning Harry to be on his guard, or indicating in any way that
Harry's suspicions might indeed be in the right direction. Here's
another canon example of Sophist!Dumbledore:

***************************
Harry: It's about Malfoy and Snape.

Dumbledore: *Professor* Snape, Harry.

Harry: "Yes Sir, I overheard them during Professor Slughorn's party...
<describes what he overheard>.

Dumbledore: Thank you for telling me this, Harry, but I suggest that
you put this out of your mind. I do not think this is of great
importance."
**************************

Neri:
You just got to love that "no great importance". Sophist!Dumbledore at
his best. Several days later Ron, Harry and Professor Slughorn very
nearly get poisoned to death. But in their next lesson, it's
Sophist!Dumbledore who manages to make *Harry* feel guilty. Not a word
regarding the ongoing murder attempts. And here's more irresponsible
Sophist!Dumbledore:

***********************************
Harry: Professor Trelawney was just in the room of requirement ... and
she heard Malfoy wooping! Celebrating! He's trying to mend something
in there and if you ask me, he's fixed it at last and you're about to
walk out of the school without –

Dumbledore: Enough. Do you think that I have once left the school
unprotected during my absences this year? I have not. Tonight, when I
leave, there will again be additional protection in place. Please do
not suggest that I do not take the safety of my students seriously, Harry.
*********************************

Neri:
I really can't detect any false statement in there. Sophist!Dumbledore
just somehow neglected to mention his own suspicions regarding Draco.
Also, he apparently doesn't station Snape or anybody else to follow
Draco that night, and he doesn't instruct the Order guards to watch
the RoR. But "there will be additional protection" and " I take the
safety of my student seriously". Gee, don't you feel safer already?

Sadly, the canon Sophist!Dumbledore isn't as funny as your fanfiction
Sophist!Dumbledore. But still, he's excellent at telling very literal
truths while keeping all the critical pieces of information to
himself, and he is every bit as irresponsible as you present him. He
knew for sure, as he later admits on the tower, that Draco was working
for Voldemort, and yet he endangered the whole school, his own
precious students, in order to give Draco a true chance to choose
right from wrong. Are you so sure that Sophist!Dumbledore would deny
that same right from LID!Snape, even if it endangers some Order
members? After all, LID!Snape is practically insured, by the deepest
magic there is, to save Harry's life, and unlike Draco he wasn't yet
working for Voldemort, at least not that Dumbledore knew. 

So what would our Sophist!Dumbledore say to Lupin or another Order
member who suspects LID!Snape? If he says "I trust Snape to save
Harry's life but I don't *really* trust him", this would just alienate
Snape more. Pretty quick nobody in the Order will want any connection
with him, and in the end he'll have no choice but going to Voldemort's
side. 

But you see, I was actually thinking about the positive meaning of the
word sophism. Sophists tend to judge truth not by its literal content,
but by the end result. You know, as in self-fulfilling prophecies. And
in this case I suspect Sophist!Dumbledore will indeed prove right
about the end result, in regard to both Draco and Snape. After all,
Sophist!Dumbledore probably has the Author on his side. 



>>  Neri (previously):
> > Not to mention that, since the only way "our side" can win the war is
> > by Harry vanquishing Voldemort, a Snape who is compelled to save
> > Harry's life is indeed on "our side", whether he wants to be or not.

> Sydney:
> Well, no he's not.  Again, this is a version of the term "on our side"
> that I don't recognize. If LD!Snape still shares Voldemort's goals,
> he's not on 'our side'.  He's on their side but handicapped.
> 
 
Neri:
Like I explained several times before, LID!Snape *doesn't* share
Voldemort's goals. At the very least he must save Harry's life at
least once before he can truly be on Voldemort's side. Even after the
end of Book 6, when he is officially on Voldemort's side, he still
must save Harry's life, so he is effectively an agent of "our side"
within the enemy's camp. Does that means he's on "our side" or not?
Well, do you want to argue semantics with Sophist!Dumbledore and JKR?
I wouldn't.


> Sydney:
> Dumbledore doesn't "trust Snape completely to save Harry's life".  He
> trusts Snape completely, full stop.  This is the teeny tiny problem
> with you theory.  He has not been telling Harry and the Order that he
> "trusts Snape completely to save Harry's life".  He's been telling
> them, "I trust Snape completely".  
> 
 
Neri:
Actually it's not really a problem with LID!Snape, not even a teeny
tiny one, because if Dumbledore fully believed in Snape's remorse, LID
still works just as well. Dumbledore simply believed Snape's remorse
was genuine, really trusted him completely, and was wrong about it. It
is just that personally I prefer Sophist!Dumbledore over
Sometimes-making-big-mistakes!Dumbledore, although they are both
supported very well in canon, so in the end it will probably turn out
to be mixture of them both. 


> Sydney:
> The reason the LD fits so neatly
> into everything is that it's just a magical prosthetic for accepting
> that Snape is, below the surface, a decent person who hated being
> directly responsible for the deaths of people he had an emotional
> connection to-- James by honour, and Lily, IMO, by love, and wants to
> atone for his sins.  I can see the attraction for anyone who simply
> cannot view Snape as having honest emotions and real honour.

Neri:
Or maybe LID fits so neatly into everything simply because it's true,
while DDM is always able find explations by inventing an arbitrarily
complex and self-contradictory character following a convoluted plot. 


> Sydney:
> "Deep and impenetrable" does not mean "blunt and obvious like a
> shock-jolting ankle bracelet".  How is that deep or impenetrable? 
> It's shallow and.. penetrable. <g>  The DADA curse is much more deep
> and impenetrable-- it's unpredictable, impossible to pin down to one
> effect, there's no point at which you can say, "ah, that was
> definitely the DADA curse right there".  It affects it's victims in
> ways that could be described as poetical and that they aren't even
> aware of, somehow maneouvering them into situations where they true
> selves are revealed.  Why, it almost acts like a literary device for
> highlighting people's personalities! 
 
> <snip>
 
> There are a zillion ways you could write that without putting in stuff
> that is directly contradictory.  "Funny how people's minds work" is an
> unnecessary thing for D-dore to say, and directly contradictory to the
> magical compulsion theory.  
 
Neri:
Ah, I see that you simply prefer another version of LID!Snape. Say, a
version in which the Life Debt is kind of a poetical magic
highlighting Snape's own remorse. Well, I'm quite open to this
version, if it works well with the canon. As I said, LID!Snape can
have as many versions as LOLLIPOPS. 

Neri