Maligning Lupin

[spotsgal]

No: HPFGUIDX 149719

> Pippin:
> But...
> Hermione was out for Umbridge's blood, so is she a monster too?

Christina:

Hermione leading Umbridge to the Centaurs is a decision that she makes
when Umbridge is about the Crucio Harry.  Self-defense.  The
werewolves purposefully attack innocent people.  There's a difference.


>> Renee:
>> It looks as if you're wielding your own theory as an argument 
>> again. Lupin has held himself accountable for the things we've seen
>> him do, or rather, omit in canon. The rest is speculation. 

> Pippin:
> Nope, not speculating. When did he tell Snape that he was sorry he'd
> performed so miserably as a prefect? When did he apologize to  Harry
> for letting Pettigrew escape? When did he apologize to Dumbledore 
> for failing to tell him about Sirius or the Marauder's Map? 

Christina:

Like you said yourself,

> Wait, wait. As we're always telling each other on this list, 
> inadequate evidence does not become adequate by virtue of being the
> only evidence available.

Christina:

We are extremely limited in the information we get from the books
because of Harry's POV.  If Lupin was going to apologize to Dumbledore
or to Snape, why on earth would he do it in front of Harry?  And as
for letting Pettigrew escape...Lupin obviously recognizes that he has
made a mistake.  The fact that he resigned isn't important - what
matters is the fact that he resigned *because* he recognized the
danger he had put everyone in... "And after last night, I see their
point.  I could have bitten any of you....That must never happen
again."  Not everybody apologizes in the same way, and Lupin is not an
emotional man.  "I mustn't do it again," is an apology itself.

And...When did the twins apologize to Dudley for enlarging his tongue?
 When did Hagrid apologize to Dudley for giving him a tail?  When did
Harry apologize to his aunt for blowing her up?  When did Sirius tell
Snape he was sorry for bullying him as a child?  When did Sirius
apologize to Lupin for the outings when they were younger?  When did
Sirius apologize to Lupin for leading Snape to the Shack?  And on, and
on.  People do not always come out and apologize for things, but they
can try to right their wrongs, which I and other posters have shown
for Lupin.


> Pippin:
> He let Harry think he'd be available at the end of OOP when he knew 
> he was going on  secret missions (OOP ch 6 p 118-US) and 
> might not be around. 

Christina:

Do we know when DD asked Lupin to start spying on the werewolves?


> Pippin:
> The rationale for Lupin joining Voldemort can be 
> foreseen in the Marauder outings and in his failure to report what 
> he knew about Sirius:
> 
> a)  society presented him with a forbidden, guilt-inducing 
> opportunity that was more attractive than doing what he felt was 
> right and
> b) Lupin chose to pursue it

Christina:

I still feel that this completely ignores the reasons behind Lupin's
decisions.  He ignored his guilt over his outings with the Marauders
because they were his friends and he wanted friends.  He failed to
report what he knew about Sirius because he didn't want to admit his
failures to DD.  So why would he consciously choose to go around
killing those friends and continuing to rack up actions that would
disappoint DD?  Lupin keeps his mouth shut because he *likes* what the
WW has done for him and he wants to keep those benefits.  That just
does not swing with a Lupin that believes that he would have a better
life under Voldemort.  And I still think that using the Marauder
outings as evidence for Lupin's tendencies to ignore evildoings is a
stretch - after all, it was James and Sirius (and Peter) that led him
on those outings in the first place.  And they *never* show remorse
for that.  The same goes for SWM.


> Pippin:
> But that only happens once. Lupin does the same thing, he tells us,
> over and over again. He argues his conscience into submission or he
> forgets his guilty feelings. Again and again and again. Harry 
> doesn't do that.

Christina:

Again, I and other posters have made the case for Lupin's "changing of
his ways."  Lupin let his friends get away with stuff as a kid, but he
keeps Sirius firmly in check during OotP.  He lied via omission to DD,
but clings fiercely to his ways in HBP.

And then we have the hallmark case of the guy who just can't change
his ways - Sirius, who *still* needles Snape, who has never uttered a
single word of remorse for bullying him and putting him and Lupin in
danger.  Even after James cleans up his act for Lily, he also
continues his rivalry with Snape.


>> Sherry:
>> Since JKR has said that lupine represents disability or illness, 
>> ESE lupine is an outcome I just can't accept, and it would probably
>> be the worst possible scenario for me of any possible outcomes. 
 
> Pippin:
> Erm, no. If we're thinking of the same quote, she said that Lupin is
> a metaphor for the *attitudes* of people toward illness and 
> disability. Not the same thing at all. He's a vehicle for showing 
> how other people react.

Christina:

He is not a vehicle to simply show us how other people react, he is a
vehicle to show us that how other people react is wrong.

> Pippin:
> JKR really upped the stakes by introducing Fenrir.  It made 
> anti-werewolf bias a lot more understandable but no less wrong. If 
> Lupin is bad it will be even more understandable. And it will still
> be wrong. I trust JKR to be able to get that across.

Christina:

But why would she want to?  It sounds like JKR had exactly the
thoughts you did - we must still fight for justice even when people of
a minority group fulfill our fears - and slipped in Fenrir Greyback to
solve that problem.


>> Christina:
>> This is why ESE!Lupin is so paradoxical to me...Lupin is "too
>> cowardly" to admit to his mentor that he betrayed his trust, but he
>> has the guts to kill his supposed best friend with DD standing in
>> the same room? 

> Pippin:
> He's more afraid of being found out than of killing. Again this is
> not speculation: we see it in the Shrieking Shack. If you're asking
> me why some people are like this, I don't know, but it seems the
> same as the guy who'd kill his wife rather than be caught cheating
> on her. I'd guess it's a control thing, which would tie it to the
> theme of power vs love. 

Christina:

That was my point.  Perhaps I should have emphasized it.  You say that
ESE!Lupin is afraid to get caught, but he apparently sends his best
friend through the veil **with DD standing in the same room**.  For
somebody that is terrified of getting caught doing something wrong,
Lupin is awfully brazen here.  And the kicker is - there is no need
for him to be!  Lupin has a hundred opportunities to kill Sirius
throughout the series, not the least of which being the Shrieking
Shack scene in PoA, where Lupin could have easily apprehended Sirius
or called for more help instead of taking the time to *exonerate* him.
 ESE!Lupin is terrified of being caught - so terrified, in fact, that
he murders his best friend while in the same room as Albus Dumbledore,
the head of the Auror department, and a paranoid ex-Auror.  That isn't
even taking into account the fact that Harry Potter is staring in
rapture at the duel.  I can't help but find all of that a bit ridiculous.

And...that Lupin is more afraid of being found out than of killing is
not an appropriate conclusion to draw from the Shrieking Shack.  Maybe
if killing Peter would have covered Lupin's tracks somehow, but it
doesn't.  With a straight reading, Peter is really nasty and has
wronged Sirius and Lupin in an intimate way.  You can't say that Lupin
isn't afraid of killing just because he is willing to kill a lying,
back-stabbing murderer.  Sirius is willing to do the same, and Harry
has shown desire to inflict harm on people who have wronged him before
also.

The example of somebody rather killing their wife rather than admit to
cheating is also off - Lupin doesn't try to kill Dumbledore, he tries
to kill an evil and dangerous traitor.

Christina