LID!Snape rides again (was: High Noon for OFH!Snape)

[Sydney]

No: HPFGUIDX 149752

 
> Neri
> I'm not sure I understand your question. First, when does Dumbledore
> say he trusted Snape before the Potters were killed?

Well, he says in his testimony that he changed sides before the
Potters were killed, and in his talk with Harry he goes on about the
remorse he felt before the Potters were killed-- when he found out who
the targets were.  It's an assumption, but then there's never been any
indication in the text that anything changed in Snape by the actual
death of the Potters, just by discovering that they were the target.

> But assuming he did, the question is how the Life Debt works exactly.
> It is actually quite possible that a deep magic like that doesn't have
> defined rules, in the same way that Lily's Ancient Magic doesn't seem
> to have very defined rules. It just works when the Author needs it to.

*cough* Or the theorist....

> The thematic content is more important than the exact details. So
> maybe the same way Dumbledore trusts that Wormtail's Debt would save
> Harry in the end, he trusts that Snape's Debt would also do that.

Sorry, what's the thematic content again of anklemonitor!Snape?  It's
not symbolic of remorse, because remorse is a selfless feeling, and
the ankle-monitor life debt is a profoundly selfish motivation.  When
I said I liked a Life Debt that worked more like the DADA curse, as
situation magic, I meant that it created a situation that didn't
artificially impose itself on the character, it created a situation--
that could easily be coincidental-- that brought out something hidden
in the character.  In a deep and impenetrable way.


> If OTOH we assume that the Life Debt magic is really more similar the
> UV. Say, it kills you if you kill the one you owe to, or I you take a
> part in killing him. 

I take it Pettigrew is unaware of this whole Life Debt thing, because
he had a very narrow escape!  It's amazing how such an overt, obvious,
and un-mysterious magical operation would fail to be taken account of
by him.  Seeing as he actually took part in an attempt to kill Harry,
wheras Snape just reported a conversation.  And Snape was desperate
enough when he realized this to change sides, whereas Peter tied Harry
to a rock right in front of Voldemort and figured he could take his
chances.


>And (in order to account for Snape's strange
> behavior  in "The Flight of the Prince") lets say that the Debt is
> kind enough to give you a painful warning or a reminder if you are
> *about* to kill or hurt that person.

Liiiiike, Peter? 


>So by informing Voldemort about
> the prophecy, Snape made himself a part of Voldemort's scheme to kill
> the Potters. He realized that he would die if Voldy kills James. 

I might mention that it's Lily that Voldemort gives the chance to
stand aside.  Just sayin'.

Snape
> has no way to convince Voldy to give this up, so he ran to Dumbledore
> and told him about it.

Dumbledore only says he BELIEVES the targeting of James and Lily was
why he changed sides.  Also just sayin'.


> Both Dumbledore and Snape would realize that this effectively places
> Snape in Dumbledore's side. Snape can only stay alive if Dumbledore
> and the Order manage to win the war and guard James, so Snape would be
> a fool to harm anybody in the Order. And if the Order wins and
> Voldemort loses, Snape would need Dumbledore to save him from Azkaban.
> In such a situation Dumbledore has a very good reason to trust that
> Snape is on his side.

Okay, now I understand.  Still, not a way I would ever use the words
"on our side".  Wouldn't Snape formulate the much more safe and
sensible plan of capturing James, killing Harry, and keeping James in
a cage or something?  Surely he could have worked that one out with
Voldemort, who would probably be downright amused by it.  What I don't
understand is why Peter doesn't seem to be aware of this pretty
straightforward (as opposed to deep and impenetrable) magical thingie.  


> >  Betsy Hp:
> > Remember, by reporting the Prophecy Snape put *Harry* in mortal 
> > danger, not James and Lily.  
> 
> Neri:
> Er... what? Do you think Snape believed for one moment that Voldy
> would leave James and Lily alive?

I think Betsy just means that your ankle-monitor Life Debt, while in
it's actual operation is as complicated as, well, and ankle monitor,
seems amazingly subtle in it's choice of targets.  You might as well
say Snape endangered James the second he joined the Voldemort, seeing
as the Order was being picked off one by one by the DE's.  Snape
reported a conversation that targeted someone who wasn't the debtee. T 


>Why is Peter able to work with Voldemort, who is 
> > actively seeking Harry's death, while Snape is somehow "trapped" to 
> > Dumbledore's side? 
> > 
> 
> Neri:
> I suspect that Snape has a more severe form of the Life Debt than
> Peter has, because after all, James *was* killed by Voldemort as a
> result of Snape's action.

Well, but Peter, at the point at which he was plotting with Voldemort
to kill Harry in GoF, would have moved into Stage 2 of your debt,
wouldn't he?  I mean, you have an out with Snape because of your
Dumbledore-used-magic-to-transfer-the-debt plug-in, but Peter's
working away all through GoF to kill Harry, and he knows perfectly
well that Harry saved his life, so he ought to die as soon as Harry
does.  What's Peter's brilliant plan?  Did he expect V-mort to be able
to work around it, using D-dore debt-transfer plan?  But why wouldn't
Snape have thought of that?

If the anklemonitor gives a shock of pain when you endanger the person
you owe a life debt to, why didn't Peter feel it?  How does the
2-stage life debt WORK with people not lucky enough to have Dumbledore
around to transfer it?  At what point do they move into the pain
stage?  If it's, debt stage 1, no real effect;  debt stage 2, you
endanger your debtor's life, then you die if they die.  Isn't Peter
starting to wonder why he's in agonizing pain pretty much all the
time, seeing as he's working for Voldemort?  Or do only rare cases of
stage 3, debtor killed but debt transfered people move into the pain
stage?   And this is the straightforward theory?


> Neri:
> Apparently Snape told Dumbledore that he felt great remorse. And if
> this pain that Snape was screaming with during The Flight was a small
> sample, then I shudder to think what he was suffering when James
> actually died. I'd imagine it wouldn't be at all difficult for him to
> feel remorse while suffering so badly. 

Is english your first language?  I'm not trying to be insulting, but
that's not 'remorse'.  If you're trying to demonstrate that you feel
remorse to a parole board, you tend to avoid going on about how sorry
you are that you got caught.  You feel guilt and remorse because of
something that happens to someone else, not something that happens to
you.  Dumbledore would be LESS inclined to think Snape felt remorse if
he was getting shocks from an ankle monitor, not more.  


> So Dumbledore would naturally want to give Snape a second chance, same
> as he gave Draco and Kreacher. Probably he was aware that Snape's
> remorse wasn't that durable, 

Or, you know, wasn't remorse.  


but Dumbledore was a great believer in
> second chances, and he'd also believe that such deep magic must play
> its part in the end.   

'Deep' magic?  What part of this is deep?  


> And indeed, just several days after Snape
> saved Dumbledore's life he took a UV. 

Where is the bit where Snape is aware that Narcissa is going to add
the third clause on?  You're making it sound like Snape was mostly
into swearing to kill Dumbledore, and the Draco stuff was an
afterthought.  But it's the other way around.  


> Neri:
> You are forgetting again the UV. The question isn't really why Snape
> killed Dumbledore on the tower. 


Indeed.  The question is why Dumbledore says, "Severus.. please.."
before Snape has done anything.  The overheard argument in the forest
plus the 'severus, please', plus the way the tower situation is set up
to mean Dumbledore's death would take Draco and Harry with him,
suggest to me that the MOST straightforward reading is that Snape
didn't want to kill Dumbledore at all, and would rather have died
himself.  Taking the UV at all supports, rather than undermines this--
if Snape just wanted to kill Dumbledore, the Vow doesn't help him it
just raises the stakes to the stratosphere.  If Snape doesn't mind
dying, it makes a lot more sense.


>So the real question here is what possessed him in Spinner's
> End to take the third part of the UV. Admittedly either DDM, ESE, OFH
> or LID don't explain it. However, DDM still has a much harder time
> with it, because a Snape who is loyal to Dumbledore and takes a Vow to
> kill him is, er... shall we say mysterious?

Not really.  Snape undertook the Vow, on a practical level, to protect
Draco-- I assume from Voldemort, because Voldemort couldn't kill Draco
without killing Snape.  How very peculiar of Snape to walk with eyes
wide open into the identical situation you say has been ruining his
lovely life, which would otherwise be spent serving Voldemort and
torturing muggles!  But I forget-- your LD sprouted a tentacle that
covers this, by like, the magic of the UV interfering with the
original LD or something?  Bit dangerous to fool around with
interactions like this, with magic so deep and impenetrable and all.
And protecting Draco from Voldemort looks every bit as hard as
protecting Harry from Voldemort.  So now he'll die if Voldemort kills
either boy.  And he'll die if he doesn't kill Dumbledore.  All part of
Snape's evil plan!

Or maybe, Snape is trying to be a good person, to try to save Draco's
life in the only way he can think of, by essentially putting himself
in front of V-mort's line of fire. Like Lily did.  But he used Dark
Magic to do it (at least, red snakes and dropping dead look like Dark
magic to me), and it cost him dearly.

The bottom line of the UV, seeing as Snape went willingly into it, is
that he's willing to die.  I still haven't heard an argument against
this, unless it's that it didn't occur to him that it would be really,
really hard to protect Draco from all harm,and kill Dumbledore, at the
same time.  Voldemort couldn't successfully kill Dumbledore. 
Voldemort wants Draco dead.  This is hard.  Not saying that Snape
didn't think he couldn't do it, but did he think it was SO EASY that
he might as well take the Vow as not?  And wouldn't killing Dumbledore
put Harry now in extreme and unprotected danger?  Especially as Snape
wouldn't be around any more to watch over him?  Ankle-monitor!Snape is
in a worse position than ever now.  

-- Sydney, who has no problem with deep and impenetrable life debts
that bring out people's true characters, but who finds
ankelmonitor!Snape to fly like a lead balloon, structurally,
thematically, and practically.