Maligning Lupin

[spotsgal]

No: HPFGUIDX 149774

> > Christina:
> >  Not everybody apologizes in the same way, and Lupin is not an
> > emotional man.  "I mustn't do it again," is an apology itself.

> Pippin:
> Erm, it's an apology for something Lupin didn't do -- bite someone.

Christina:

Lupin obviously knows he didn't bite anyone; he is saying that he 
put them in a situation where they *could* have been bitten, and 
that *that* must never happen again.  Lupin recognizes the danger 
that he put the children in, and voices that recognition to Harry.  
An acknowledgement of one's mistakes is an apology, or at least the 
beginnings of one.

> Pippin:
> I'd like to see an apology or at least some remorse  for something 
> that Lupin did do, expressed to someone who could actually impose 
> a consequence on him, one that he wouldn't have faced if he hadn't 
> confessed. 
>
> You know, like the confession of remorse Dumbledore says
> Snape made to him. 

Christina:

Again, Lupin's crime here was that he put the children in danger.  
He recongizes that fact ("I could have bitten any one of you"), and 
takes steps to ensure that the children will be removed from the 
danger by his leaving Hogwarts.

And I don't see how this relates to DD and Snape at all.

>>> Pippin:
>>> The rationale for Lupin joining Voldemort can be foreseen in the 
>>> Marauder outings and in his failure to report what he knew about 
>>> Sirius:
>>> a)  society presented him with a forbidden, guilt-inducing 
>>> opportunity that was more attractive than doing what he felt was 
>>> right and
>>> b) Lupin chose to pursue it
 
>> Christina: 
>> I still feel that this completely ignores the reasons behind 
>> Lupin's decisions. 

> Pippin:
> The reasons aren't important.

Christina:

Of course they are!  The key to a person's character 
(not 'character' as in moral value, but 'character' as in the set of 
traits that are attributed to a certain person) is not in the things 
they do, but in their motivations.  You cannot possibly claim to be 
able to make predictions based on prior actions, because people do 
all sorts of different things for strange reasons.  By looking at 
Lupin's actions without analyzing the reasons behind those actions, 
you are not doing true justice to his character.  Lupin does not 
always ignore his conscience, and in every example given of times 
when he does, he shows remorse later.  And again, there is a 
difference between Lupin's passive choices to "look the other way," 
so to speak, from the bad choices of others, and a conscious 
decision to actively pursue evil.


>> Christina:
>>So why would he consciously choose to go around killing those 
>>friends and continuing to rack up actions that would disappoint 
>>DD?  Lupin keeps his mouth shut because he *likes* what the WW has 
>>done for him and he wants to keep those benefits.  That just does 
>>not swing with a Lupin that believes that he would have a better 
>>life under Voldemort. 

> Pippin:
> Where do you see that Lupin likes being poor, jobless,  an 
> unpopular dinner guest, and being persecuted by the Ministry?  He 
> needs his wizard friends to shelter him from things which he 
> wouldn't have to suffer in the first place if wizarding society 
> was fair. 


Christina:

Lupin's only words about his time as a young person are very 
complimentary - his schoolboy transformations were "the best times 
of my life."  Lupin says that the Animagi around him helped him keep 
his mind more human during the transformations, and that he liked 
that.  And isn't that the theme of the entire series? - who cares 
how much money you have, as long as you have friends who love you 
and stand by you?  By JKR's standards, Lupin was a very lucky young 
man indeed.

We have no canonical evidence that Lupin's young life was anything 
like you described.  Harry's vision of Lupin in the pensieve is 
perhaps the only time Lupin is ever introduced *without* mention of 
shabby and patched robes.  Sirius points out that Umbridge's *new* 
laws (it looks like they were passed after PoA) make it "almost 
impossible" for Remus to get a job, meaning that it was possible 
beforehand.  Lupin isn't a popular dinner guest post-PoA because his 
status as a werewolf is found out.  He seems to have kept it a great 
secret beforehand.  And even in OotP, Lupin has a group of people 
that follow his lead and accept his authority without question - 
even Molly, who raised get-away-from-me-werewolf!Ron, shuts up when 
Lupin puts her in her place.  He is obviously respected within the 
Order.

I also find it interesting that the werewolves (and other groups) 
are willing to accept Voldemort's claims of a "better life" under 
his reign when his entire philosophy is stemmed from pure-blooded 
prejudices.  It shouldn't be too hard to entice werewolves that are 
poorly educated, starving, and stealing, but Lupin?  He would see 
right through such a charade.  Especially considering the fact that 
his young life doesn't really seem like it was all that bad.


>> Christina:
>> Hermione leading Umbridge to the Centaurs is a decision that she 
>> makes when Umbridge is about the Crucio Harry.  Self-defense.  The
>> werewolves purposefully attack innocent people.  There's a 
>> difference.

> Pippin:
> Werewolves attack people whom they believe are depriving them of 
> their rights and freedoms.  YMMV.
<snip>
> I'm sure Hermione didn't think she'd have a better
> life if the centaurs took over -- but her immediate situation took
> precedence. 

Christina:

That is exactly my point.  It is the difference between a slave 
executing secret plots to murder rich white men (who may or may not 
have ever held slaves in the first place), and a slave attacking a 
slave owner who is coming at his daughter with a whip.  Hermione's 
decision was a split-second one, based on the threat of immediate, 
physical danger.  She doesn't care about who has the better 
philosophy - she just wants Harry to escape imminent pain.  There is 
nothing to show that Lupin was ever under pressure even remotely 
similar, and so comparisons between their actions are difficult to 
pull off.  The werewolves also don't operate under the same 
conditions that Hermione does - their violence is done against 
innocents, as *vengeance* for wrongs done to them.  And as JKR has 
told us, although retribution is an understandable human response, 
there is a wide world of difference between "getting even" (at the 
wrong people, even!) and protecting oneself from hurt in the first 
place.  She only reinforced this idea in HBP - Lucius Malfoy messes 
up, and Voldemort punishes Draco.


> Pippin:
> In HBP we find out that he regards the prophecy as essentially 
> worthless...<snip>...If Sirius had been in Dumbledore's 
> confidence, he'd have told Harry to drop it.

Christina:

Because when Dumbledore shares information with you, he always tells 
the *whole* truth, right? :)  It isn't all-or-nothing with 
Dumbledore - he feeds out information, little by little, when he 
believes you need to know.  He doesn't have confidants, but he 
*does* tell others his "shrewd ideas."  Whether back in the first 
war or now, it's easy to believe that DD told Sirius about the 
prophecy, but did not wax poetic on his full views.  Or maybe DD 
told James and Lily about it (he certainly should have, if it was 
about their son), and James told Sirius.


> Pippin:
> ESE!Lupin might prefer not to kill Sirius, but in that moment he 
> had more to lose by Sirius surviving. Being caught as a murderer 
> would not be worse than being caught as a DE spy. Either way, 
> Sirius and Dumbledore would not want to be his friends any more. 
> But if Sirius died,  Dumbledore's precious trust could be 
> preserved.

Christina:

And you've lost me.  First of all, there's no need for Lupin to risk 
killing Sirius himself - the man is standing in front of a cursed 
veil, goading his insane murderer of a cousin.  Honestly, I don't 
think she needed any extra help.  

And I also don't see how Sirius living would have led to Lupin being 
caught as a murderer.  Dumbledore never asks Harry why he runs with 
the prophecy (Sirius's words to him never come up), and there's no 
reason to believe that that would change with Sirius living.  Also, 
Lupin allows Sirius to talk quite a bit about the prophecy at the 
dinner table in the beginning of OotP (not referring to it as such, 
but strongly suggesting that Voldemort wants to use it as a 
weapon).  Pretty stupid, if Lupin is giving this information to 
Sirius in secret (and while we're on it, why would he do that in the 
first place?).  We can also assume that Lupin was going to allow 
Sirius to keep talking.  It is *Molly* who stops the flow of 
information.  Note the way she does not seem to be surprised by the 
information that is being shared...perhaps because she knows it 
too?  She also says that if Lupin and Sirius tell them any more, 
they might as well induct Harry into the Order, so she also knows 
that there is more to the story).


>> Christine:
>> You can't say that Lupin isn't afraid of killing just because he 
>> is willing to kill a lying, back-stabbing murderer. 

> Pippin:
> But I do say that...<snip>...Sirius is white and shaking as he 
> prepares to kill Peter. Lupin actually gloats. It's a quiet gloat, 
> but what would we think of Snape if he'd said, "You should have 
> known, Albus, if Voldemort didn't kill you, we would. Goodbye."? 
> Even a hardcore DDM!Snaper would find that hard to explain.

Christina:

Peter Pettigrew is bad.  Dumbledore is good.  Therein lies the 
difference in killing and gloating at each of them.  Oh yes, there 
are bits of good and bits of evil in everyone, but if Book 7 
featured Harry gloating at an ESE!Snape, a fair amount of people 
would be cheering him on.  You can't infuse the scene in the Shack 
with your theory and then use that to make conclusions to support 
your theory.  Peter is presented as Evil Guy and is treated as 
such.  We are meant to praise Harry for his sense of justice and 
fairness, but...most of us can't *really* blame Sirius and Remus for 
their actions.  Everyone knows that fists aren't the answer, but 
there is still that little part a lot of people that cheers when 
Harry lunges at Draco in OotP.

So, then...the difference between Sirius and Remus's reactions to 
killing Peter.  The problem is that Remus is not an emotional man.  
He is shown remaining calm and light on his feet in tough 
situations, particularly of the emotional sort.  It's a character 
trait of his.  An ability to hide his true emotions may have helped 
an ESE!Lupin hide his dirty little secret, but it doesn't make him 
evil in and of itself.  Lupin doesn't show the emotion that Sirius 
does in the Shack scene, but Lupin doesn't ever show the emotion 
that Sirius does.

And really, what is Sirius really upset about here?  Emotions are 
running high - is he white and shaking because he finally has to 
kill?  Or perhaps because he is remembering the anguish over finding 
his best friend's dead body in the rubble of his home?  Or maybe he 
is overcome with the guilt of being the instrument that let it all 
happen?  Sirius IS shown as getting a bit shaky in other points in 
the Shack scene; it isn't just when he is faced with killing Peter.  
It seems more likely to me that Sirius's emotional state at that 
point is less a matter of it being hard to kill somebody and more a 
matter of the entirety of Sirius's horrible ordeal finally coming to 
a head.


Christina