The end of the Secret (Was: The lack of Obliviators and the Press at GH )

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 149897

PJ wrote:
> When Dumbledore wrote the information on that piece of paper he
didn't "speak" the location so the secret wasn't broken, just shared.
 If PP TOLD (verbalized) the location of the Potters to Voldemort then
there would no longer be a secret to keep.  At least that's how I
understood JKR's answer on SK's.  Once spoken the secret is no longer
a secret.

Carol responds:
Actually, that's not quite what JKR says. Her words are, "the only
people who ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail
had told directly." So telling the secret, either in spoken or written
form, doesn't break the spell. It only enables people who aren't the
Secret Keeper to know the secret (but not reveal it). 

Also, the secret, as JKR makes clear, is "the precise location" of
their hiding place. Once the Potters have been discovered by the very
 wizard from whom they're hiding, the secret ceases to serve its
purpose, though it's possible that it's still a secret from those who
haven't been told (e.g., the Muggles in Godric's Hollow). However,
when two of the Potters are dead--obviously no longer in hiding--and
the third is sitting helplessly among the ruins of the hiding place,
which no longer exists, the spell is surely destroyed. I agree with PJ
that the secret ceases to exist on the night of Godric's Hollow, but
not because PP spoke it aloud. It's destroyed because "the Potters are
hiding at [specific address] in Godric's Hollow" is no longer a viable
secret or even a true statement. The hiding place and two of the
people who were hiding ("the subjects of the secret," in JKR's words)
no longer exist; the third subject is no longer hidden. There is no
secret to be kept.

PJ wrote: 
> As for how Dumbledore knew the Potters were in trouble and where
they  were... When you worry about people you think about them a lot.
 As long as Dumbledore could think about them and not visualize where
they were located he knew they were ok, but the minute he *knew* where
they were, he knew the secret was out - and also where to send Hagrid.

Carol responds:
I agree with you here: Dumbledore did *not* know where they were
because Peter had not told him. (Obviously Peter had not told him in
person or DD would have known that Black was not the SD, but I don't
think he received a note, either.) But, yes, the moment he knew the
Secret, he knew that the Potters were in trouble and probably dead.

To speculate a bit: I think that DD, who is somehow directly connected
to Godric Gryffindor, suggested the hiding place in the first place.
So, originally, at the time he suggested himself as Secret Keeper or
before, he knew where they were. Once PP was made the Secret Keeper, a
mere week before Godric's Hollow, he no longer knew their location,
which was magically concealed from him. He became fearful and
suspicious, distrusting the young man that James Potter had intended
to make the SK in his place, Sirius Black. When DD awoke around
midnight on October 31/November 1, he knew the location and knew that
the Potters had been betrayed (but not by whom). He may have feared
that all three were dead and Voldemort had successfully thwarted the
Prophecy. 

But (speculation again) if Severus Snape also woke up, feeling a
terrible pain in his left arm as LV was ripped from his body and
pushing up his sleeve to watch as the Dark Mark faded to almost
nothing, then rushed up seven flights of stairs to inform Dumbledore
of this strange news, DD and SS together would have figured out what
happened--the adult Potters were discovered and betrayed, perhaps
dead, but Voldemort was weakened and nearly destroyed, which could
only mean that the child "born as the seventh month dies" had somehow
defeated him and was still alive. 

Obviously I can't prove any of this, but it makes sense to me that
both the end of the Secret and the fading of the Dark Mark were
required for DD to correctly deduce what had happened. From there, I
think, he would have gone to those mysterious instruments in his
office to discover more information and "watch from afar," at the same
time sending Snape to Hagrid with the order to go to Godric's Hollow
at once, retrieve Harry, and allow no one else to claim custody of the
baby. (That would account, in part, for Hagrid's trust in Snape and
also explain how Hagrid got there so quickly, again assuming that he
can Apparate. And it would also account for DD's laconic "No problems,
were there?" when Hagrid mentioned "young Sirius Black"; Dumbledore
anticipated that Black would try to claim Harry and took measures to
thwart him without arousing Hagrid's suspicions that Black was the
traitor. He didn't want to risk having Hagrid fight Black.)

Carol, who still can't work out the time frame and isn't sure it can
be done