But DID James listen? (was LID!Snape rides again )

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 150019

Alla:
> 
> But of course, since I believe in Snape darker nature, I will go 
> further and speculate that Snape indeed signed up to join Voldie 
and 
> company when he was still in school and that is where many 
conflicts 
> betweem him and James indeed grew. 

Ceridwen:
I think part of Snape's fascination for people who both like and 
dislike him, is his darkness.  So I can completely agree with you on 
believing in his darker nature.  I'm not sure that he joined LV 
during school, but we know from Sirius that he hung out with a crowd 
who almost all later became DEs.  Maybe they had a DE Jr club, like 
Harry's DA?  Just kidding, but they may have had the darker aspects 
of magic in common.  I don't know where his crowd was during the 
Pensieve scene - in class?  Already graduated?  Certainly not in 5th 
year!

Alla:
> It is true that we don't know whether Draco has the mark or not, 
but 
> I think it is possible that he does have a mark and if it is so, I 
> think it will be even more likely that Snape joined while still in 
> Hogwarts.

Ceridwen:
I thought that Draco was doing a sort of hazing - get through this 
and you'll be a Proud Member Of Our Team.  I was surprised (and felt 
very vindicated ;) ) when I read the same thing on Red Hen.  I can't 
give a theory of what Draco showed Burke if it wasn't the Dark Mark, 
but I don't see LV inducting a schoolboy.  Also, his plan was for 
Draco to die, not join the team, as a punishment for Lucius.  Why 
bother inducting him if a simple hazing will accomplish the purpose?  
I also got the impression that Draco's mission from LV was unusual, 
despite Harry's certainty that LV would stoop so low as to induct 
schoolboys.

I do, though, think that LV had his eye on certain schoolchildren as 
they were growing up, so he could send someone to approach them about 
joining once they were out of Hogwarts and away from Dumbledore's 
eye.  And it's possible that the gang Snape hung out with was marked, 
maybe by older graduated students who were then full-fledged DEs.  
Both sides have to recruit, and Hogwarts students are ripe for the 
picking.

Alla:
> 
> Those are all fascinating questions, but I must agree with Allie  
> and I did wrote about it in the past - I don't think we know for 
> sure that Snape DID warn James. For all we know  - Snape became 
> aware that somebody else warned James about the possible spy? Maybe 
> Lily told Snape that they got a warning and that is how Snape knows?

Ceridwen:
I got the impression that Snape told James how bad Sirius was, based 
on his vehemence when he talks about it.  He seems to take it 
personally.  This is just speculation as well.  It's enlightening to 
find that others see it differently.  It adds another dimension to 
the story.  Maybe he didn't warn him about the SK thing itself, then, 
but at some point he did tell him how wrong he was to put his faith 
in Sirius.  That will depend on whose reading is correct, and whether 
JKR decides to go there or not.

Alla:
> But in any event, even though it is 
> possible that Snape indeed warned James, one thing I am rather 
> confident about - I don't see James keeping Lily out of anything, 
> out of talking to Snape as Betsy said or that Lily was not an 
active 
> participant in the decision, as you suggest. Sorry, not buying that 
> at all. To me Lily's characterv screams of someone who has a takes 
> charge attitude. IMO of course.

Ceridwen:
Going sideways from this discussion, I would agree about what we know 
of Lily's personality.  She was cheeky, and she was not afraid to 
stand up to popular people.  She is clearly a strong character.  I 
can see possibilities that Snape talked to James alone - Lily could 
have been away, or napping after a bad night with Harry, or Snape and 
James ran into each other elsewhere.

While I can't see Lily allowing James to keep her out of things, I 
can see James trying to, in order to protect her.  The same way Harry 
broke up with Ginny to protect her at the end of HBP.  Not that it 
will do any good with Ginny, the primary people who knew they were 
dating had already left Hogwarts by the time they broke up. Isn't 
that the point, to make LV think she's not a lure to draw Harry to 
his death?  Also, I don't think Ginny will allow it.  I think JKR is 
drawing parallels between Ginny and Lily on some levels.  But she is 
also drawing parallels between Harry and James where both are heroic, 
sometimes to a fault.  Protecting their women seems to be a part of 
that particular similarity, in my opinion.

Alla:
> I don't think James could have kept Lily out of anything, 
> personally. Speculating of course.

Ceridwen:
Absolutely not!  Lily wouldn't allow it for one thing.  And since it 
had to do with her safety as well, and with her child's, I think she 
could convince him through argument that he was wrong.  It would be 
grossly unfair for him to shove her aside for this.  Their continued 
lives are that important that she has to be a part of it.  But, 
that's my speculation.  And I'm trying to base what I think of that 
period of James' and Lily's lives with what I see in 'present-day' 
canon, Harry and Ginny.  Harry was convinced that Ginny would 
understand why he felt he had to break up with her.  Does she?  Or 
will she fight, like I tend to think Lily did, to remain an equal 
partner in the danger?

All of this goes to the discussions about the role of women in the 
Potterverse that are at various places on the internet.  Is JKR 
writing a more traditional story, where the 'princess' sits back 
while her knight in shining armor protects her?  Or will she give us 
strong women who don their own armor and fight alongside their men?

Ceridwen, who may have been reading way too much for her own mental 
comfort.