[HPforGrownups] Re: The Huge overreactions from a five minute time span.

[Joe Goodwin]

No: HPFGUIDX 150144

>>Leah <littleleah at handbag.com> wrote:
>> Sorry, not remembered rightly. Harry wondered if James had forced
>>Lily to marry him. <snip>

>>Of course I agree that Lily wasn't coerced into marrying James and
>>didn't feel that she was being coereced, but that's irrelevant.
>>What Harry felt (briefly) at the time, after seeing James' treatment
>>of Snape, was that James was capable of so forcing her. <<


Joe: 
Isn't the point though that all evidence points to Harry's feelings
being wrong? James and Lily did get married and we have no reason
other than Harry's thought (based on one scene) that there was any
thing wrong at all.

I agree Harry could have thought his Mom might have been forced but
then again he thought he was saving Sirius at the Ministry. He
overreacts to certain things, understandable so.

Isn't it what Harry felt irrelevant and the truth more so?


>Ceridwen  wrote:     

>I disagree.  I think the most hysteria-inducing piece of Harry >Potter was the joint GoF/OotP which gave rise in fanfic to Doomed!>Outed!Snape and Puking!CAPSLOCK!Harry.

<snip>

>Aside from fan fiction, I haven't heard or read anyone suggesting 
>that Snape would have been all Goodness and Light if only, if only.  

<snip>
   
Joe: 
Can't say I liked CAPSLOCK!Harry much either. I really can't see how having teenaged rivalry with James and Sirius could have caused him to be a Death Eater in any way. Thats a bit like saying "I wasn't hugged enough so I chop people up,"


>Ceridwen:
>This is more fanfic fodder.  There are indications that Snape may >not have been pleased with Dumbledore's handling of the Prank.  >Since it could have gotten him killed or turned into a werewolf, I >think he has reason to be upset.  Whether his reason is valid or not >is a matter that hasn't been addressed in canon to my knowledge.  If >I'm wrong, someone will provide relevant canon.

<snip>
   
Joe: 

Not certain if I care if Snape was plesed with the punishment or not. Honestly if he had kept his nose out of other peoples business it wouldn't have been the matter. I will need reminding, I think, but didn't Sirius just tell him how to get past the Whomping Willow? Wouldn't Snape have had to been trying to see what they were doing before hand then?


>Ceridwen:
>James Potter died a great guy.  When he was a teenager, Lily Evans 
>called him a 'toerag', said he was no better than Snape, and that >she would prefer a date with the Giant Squid to a date with James.

>As a teenager, James Potter decided to harass and bully another 
>student because his best friend Sirius was bored.  When he was >called on his behavior, he gave the reason that Snape deserved it >for just existing.  

<snip>  

>He comes across as your typical arrogant, self-satisfied jock of a >teen with brains he probably doesn't use to their fullest extent.

Joe: 

"Typical arrogant, self-satisfied jock" - right there is part of the issue I have with the James detractors. It smacks of high school stereotypes. Yeah, you can get that from a five minutes scene. It, of course, is the same James Potter that learned how to be an Animagus to help his werewolf friend. Showing both that he was at least loyal to some and that he probably did use his brain to the fullest extent.
   
Not to mention we have no idea why James was willing to hex Snape. Did they have an altercation earlier, who Knows? I suspect at this point both of them feel perfect justified in hexing the other.
   
 rue Lilly called him a toerag. Of course I doubt that she knew the dangers he went through to aid his friend either. I think she might have thought differently had she known.


>Ceridwen:

<snip>

>As an adult, he withholds information about Sirius's Animagus status >even though he does suspect or wholeheartedly believe that Sirius >was the one who betrayed the Potters to Voldemort.  
<snip>  
 
Joe: 

Do we know that he didn't tell anyone about Sirius being an Animagus? Since they were both in the first Order I suspect that at the very least Dumbledore knew. I would also imagine Dumbledore had known since Sirius told Snape about the Williow.

>Ceridwen:

<snip>
>And, Dark Magic isn't illegal.  There is no place in canon that says 
>so.  There are three Unforgivable Curses which will earn you an 
>immediate trip to Azkaban.  But that's all.
   
Joe: 

Odd that if Dark Magic isn't illegal that then Ministry can raid a house looking for Dark objects, isn't it?


>Ceridwen:

<snip>

Your sudden switch to friends or lack thereof is a straw man that has 
nothing to do with your paragraph's original idea.  In fact, Snape's 
lack of social skills coupled with the Pensieve memory would argue 
for, not against, James and Sirius ganging up on Snape two to one, 
since James and Sirius had each other for friends, while Snape had no 
one, yet we do know that their rivalry continued all through school.

<snip>

Joe: 

The fact that Snape had poor social skills does not mean that there were not other Slytherins in the same boat who would aid him. The very house structure implies that this would be the case.
   
As for James continuing to hex Snape I suggest that Snape more than likely did the same thing. At this point there is not way they would stop until they left school.


Ceridwen:

Canon for Auror!James?  I was under the impression that he was rich, 
the only son of an older couple in fact, and did not have to work.  
Also, people liked James, much as they like Harry, but where does it 
say that he 'worked to help people'?  Nice people don't always work 
to help others.  Sometimes, they're just likeable.

Snape regretted telling the prophecy at least two months before the 
Potters' deaths, if not sooner.  In his statement at the Pensieve 
hearing in GoF, Dumbledore says that Snape 'returned' to the good 
side and spied on Voldemort 'at great personal risk'.  

<snip>

Joe: 

I stand corrected as to Auror James. I still maintain James's actions as an adult show at the very least that he learned valuable lessions while young and could not have merely been the person we see in Snape's memory. 
   
Yeah, some people are just likable. Of course there are reasons why people are likable. Generally you aren't likable if you are just arrogant, rude, insensitive and selfish.
   
Yes, Snape regretted telling Voldemort, so what? Snape is a highly intelligent man no matter what. He could easily see the implications of the prophecy and yet told it to Voldemort knowing what sort of monster he was dealing with.
   
Voldemort's following actions were very easy to predict. So much so that the Potters had to go into hiding.
   
The very popular idea that he regretted it being Lily Potter's child is even more damning as it at least implies that he would not have regretted it if the child killed had been Neville or in fact some unknown child.
   
Joe



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