Young James v Older James WAS: Re: The Huge overreactions .

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 150164

Alla:
> 
> Sorry, I have to disagree - not in a sense of sixteen year old 
James 
> being perfect, but in a sense that people say good things only 
about 
> after school James, more mature James. I think already at that age 
> James had enough good in him, and enough bad of course, but no, I 
am 
> not buying the "after" only good things :)

Ceridwen:
(I think this might be my fourth post - I'll iron quietly if no one 
mentions it!  If I can type on this for another hour or two, it might 
become my first post for tomorrow... *wish*)

James was not a paragon of virtue.  He had his faults.  By the time 
Harry goes into Snape's memory in OotP, he has built up a saint of a 
man in his mind, the way orphans do.  The same way young Tom Riddle 
built up the idea of a Wizarding father rather rapidly after learning 
of his background.  Tom was brought down immediately, Harry had five 
years of adding to the myth.

What Harry sees is what people who don't associate intimately with 
the Marauders saw in school.  He doesn't see the monthly midnight 
transformations or serious discussions, he sees preening pretty-boys 
who are athletically inclined, trying to impress the girls and each 
other with their prodigious skills, out of boredom after exams.

I know you didn't mention it, but others have, so I'll go there ;) - 
the memory begins during the written portion of the exam and 
continues out to the lake.  There is nothing immediately before this 
point that wasn't seen, or couldn't be assumed from the situation.  
We know from OotP and Harry's own O.W.L.s that the test takes some 
time, and from the Pensieve scene, that Snape took quite a bit of 
time to answer his questions.  There was nothing immediate that MWPP 
were answering with the hexing.  Sirius is bored, so the hexing 
begins.

I think that one thing the books have shown, whether intentional or 
not, is that qualities have both good and bad sides.  The same 
quality which has James, Sirius and Peter learning to be Animaguses 
(Animagi?) to keep Lupin company on full moon nights, also has James 
trying to relieve Sirius's boredom in a less than stellar way by 
hexing Snape.  James is being a friend to his friends in both cases.  
I think it was you who said that James didn't change in any 
fundamental way?  I don't think this particular reading of the two 
sides of friendship and loyalty would go against that.

Alla:
> Dumbledore speaks  here of teenage James too, no?
> 
> "I knew your father very well, both at Hogwarts and later, Harry," 
> he said gently. "He would  have saved Pettigrew too, I am sure 
> not." - PoA, p.427.
> 
> Wouldn't you agree that DD does not just say here that James would 
> have saved his friend Pettigrew? I think he says  metaphorically 
> that James would have showed mercy to the enemies and James " both 
> in Hogwarts and later".

Ceridwen:
I do think that Dumbledore meant that James, like Harry, would prefer 
objective justice over vigilantism.  I don't see this as a 
contradiction to a preening, arrogant, hexing James.  People are 
complex.  And we know from Sirius that James had a strong dislike for 
the Dark Arts, and that Snape was probably the closest schoolmate to 
a Dark Wizard they had.

I do think James is setting himself up as judge and jury here if 
Sirius is correct about the motivation behind the rivalry from 
James's point of view.  I think we can see this in real life, in the 
quandry of when to sit back and let the system take its course, v. 
becoming an activist and perhaps breaking laws to get a cause 
noticed.  I think this is more the arena of the young, who are also 
impatient.  This quality is the downside of a strong moral compass.  
Again, two sides of the same quality being manifest.  Again, James 
does not fundamentally change.

The changes in James, which prompt the later praise from people who 
knew him, was in refining his qualities and redirecting them into 
more productive channels.  It is easy to look back on James's 
friendship and overlooking the negative manifestations for the core 
quality itself, or looking back on his sense of moral direction and 
overlooking his misuse of this compass.  He 'made mistakes' as 
someone said.  He learned, he grew, he refined, and he became the 
person we hear about.  I don't think it's inconsistent.  I just think 
that time, and seeing through to the root quality, makes a difference 
in the way people talk about him now.

Which doesn't mean that he wasn't a 'toerag' or that he should get a 
pass for what we have seen him do.

Someone mentioned (I'm sorry, I read so many of these posts that I 
don't always remember who said what) that Lupin fastened his eyes on 
his book apparently because he knew what was going to happen.  He was 
staring at the page, but Harry noticed that his eyes were not moving, 
and a frown line appeared on his forehead.  So Lupin was used to this 
behavior.  Lupin gave it a pass for whatever reason, and plenty of 
reasons have been advanced.  Lupin is one of the people who praise 
James now.  Lupin was the recipient of James's friendship and loyalty 
on the good side of the quality.  Here he is, ignoring the downside 
of the quality.

I'm not sure if I'm being very clear.  Bravery is good, unless it is 
stupid.  Being a friend is good, unless it is used to harm other 
people for real or imagined slights.  Loyalty is good, unless it is 
used to cover up criminal misdoings.  And so on, and so on.  And 
James has certain traits which made him a good man, but which also 
made him a bratty teenager.

Alla:
> Nag, I think that even young James had plenty good qualities and 
> hopefully Harry will get a chance to hear about them and not just 
> about his dad's heroic death.

Ceridwen:
Hopefully, Harry will learn more about both of his parents.  He 
deserves to know them as well as he can.  I don't think that learning 
that his father was occasionally a bratty twit will lessen his 
experience.  I do think it will make his father more human to him.  
He isn't much different from Harry, who dislikes Draco on a visceral 
level, which is what I imagine James felt for Snape, based on what 
Dumbledore has said.

I don't think it's a service to Harry to paint his parents as 
impossibly perfect people.  I think that's what Augusta Longbottom 
does to Neville.  Poor kid can't ever live up to Gran's idealized 
version of Frank and Alice.  I don't think that's right because then, 
every failure lets his parents down.  It can get to the point where 
it's just better not to try.  This is another thing orphaned kids 
miss about having their parents around.  People do talk about the 
good and allow time to blur the bad.  These kids never get the chance 
to break away from the parental bonds and become people in their own 
right because how can you break away from perfection?

I don't get why James being mean in this scene is some threat to his 
later achievements, or to the way he supports Lupin in his monthly 
change.  I don't understand why it seems to boil down to either 
supporting Noble!James (not saying 'perfect') or DDM!Snape, but not 
both.  I honestly don't see that choice being forced in the books.  
JKR's characters are flawed and, therefore, human.

Ceridwen, who is off on a tangent, probably because it is late and 
she ought to be in bed.