Lily' sacrifice v James' sacrifice WAS: Perfect Lily

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 150215

Alla:
Welll, yes, I know this reason and cannot wait to find out why Lily 
was valuable to Voldemort. <snip>

Carol:
I don't think that Voldemort's motive, if any, is important. He merely
tells her to stand aside. (JKR compares this to a RL criminal telling
a person to get out of the way--basically, let me kill your baby and
you won't get hurt.) It's Lily's choice that distinguishes her from
James, who also died bravely defending his family. But since he pulled
out a wand and offered to fight instead of standing between his child
and Voldemort, he "had" to die in Voldie's view. If Lily had tried to
fight him, it's most unlikely that he would have ordered her to stand
aside. Unfortunately for her and Harry, she'd have died exactly as
James did, and there would have been no sacrifice to protect Harry.

Alla:
> > I  got the impression that Lily sacrifice vs James sacrifice is 
different for  JKR not just because of different outcome the ancient 
> > magic invoked, but  that James' sacrifice was some how less 
> > significant, less conscious, less  worthy of respect from the
readers  since James was going to die  anyway.
> > 
Carol:
I get the same impression. She does see James's death, which is not a
sacrifice but a death in battle, one armed opponent against another,
as being of a different order than Lily's genuine self-sacrifice, not
because James was less conscious that he was going to die but because
Lily didn't have to. I know it's inconceivable that any normal parent,
mother or father, would have allowed their child to die, but the
difference is that *she didn't fight back.* Instead, she offered
herself in her son's place after Voldemort told her to stand aside.
That's what makes her different from James (who, being armed and ready
to fight, was offered no such choice). She could have stood aside and
watched her son die (and Voldie, no doubt, would have felt additional
pleasure in her guilt and suffering when it was all over). But  she
chose not to, and, for JKR, that's a different kind of courage, the
courage to sacrifice yourself for your child rather than the courage
to fight to protect your (wife and) child.

> Pippin:
> James may have had little hope of defeating Voldemort in battle;
> nevertheless if he'd won, he'd have saved his own life too. I think 
> that may lessen his sacrifice in JKR's eyes, make it less pure. 
> Lily did not even have a hope of saving herself.

Carol:
Maybe. James was armed, a skilled wizard fighting a much more powerful
wizard, with the disadvantage of being unwilling or unable to cast a
Killing Curse, but theoretically he had some small chance of
surviving, at least inhis own view. But again, it's the element of
*choice* that matters to JKR. James didn't have the choice of laying
down his wand or running away. To do so would be sheer cowardice, and
for James, that wasn't an option. He had to fight, and since it was
Voldie he was fighting, he had to die. Had Lily been armed and ready
to fight, she would never (IMO) have been offered a chance to stand
aside. But since she had that chance and chose not to take it, she,
unlike James, did not have to die. She chose to do so, to trade her
life for her son's--or at least, to make the attempt and hope that
Voldie didn't kill Harry as well as her. She didn't just step in front
of Harry and take the AK for him, as Fawkes did for Dumbledore in OoP.
She willingly offers herself as a sacrifice to save Harry.

It's the difference between the *hero*, whose courage is duplicated
every time a soldier fights valiantly in hand-to-hand combat, and the
*martyr*, who gives his or her life willingly, without a fight, for a
cause or principle that he or she believes in. A hero who fights a
losing battle against a merciless enemy has to die; a martyr who gives
up her own life in exchange for her child's does not. She dies because
she chooses to die, out of pure love, not heroism. Heroes have a
hundred faces in the HP books; martyrs, apparently, have just one.

Carol, trying to explain that James's defense of his family, however
valiant, does not qualify as self-sacrifice, and that it took an act
of martyrdom, not of heroism, to activate the ancient magic