[HPforGrownups] Severus's memories and schoolyard curses (Was: Huge overreactions .. . .)

[Karen]

No: HPFGUIDX 150328


  Carol responds:

  Still, that memory is complete in itself, and the point of it appears
  to be that Severus did nothing to instigate that particular attack. It
  was two on one, unprovoked, for the entertainment of Bored!Sirius.
  kchuplis:

  True, I am just trying to point out that "bias" does not necessarily have to be in the form of "how Snape see's it" thus being true to JKR saying that pensieve memories are exact.

  carol:
  I would say that the third memory, of the unknown girl laughing at the
  boy Severus (who at a guess is about eleven years old) riding what
  appears to be a hexed broomstick is not indicative of a happy
  childhood, either.

  kchuplis:
  Agreed. I wonder if Snape was ever happy. Or laughed. Or smiled.

  Carol:
  I object to the comparison of the magical equivalent of swatting flies
  to pulling the wings off butterflies, however. One is done out of
  boredom (flies are annoying pests that even Muggles kill without a
  thought), the other out of sheer cruelty. I'm guessing that he's
  stunning the flies (IIRC, Harry does something similar to a wasp in
  Trelawney's class), not AKing them. Or maybe the WW has a bug-killing
  curse that's not illegal. Surely they don't let flies settle on their
  food or buzz annoyingly around their heads any more than Muggles do.

  kchuplis:
  My point was, it does not seem that the flies are bugging him in those ways but rather like he is taking his unhappiness out on them. I guess that is my completely objective view, but something like that which is actually retained as a memory that Harry had access too indicates to me more than swatting at flies. There is a difference. (and I'm a muggle who usually attempts to merely capture any insects that annoy her and put them outside. So I guess I have a different view). Still, yes, I have swatted flies (hate doing it though uck uck uck!) but I can't recall specific instances of it. There is more to that memory than meets the eye.

  Carol:
  And it's James, not Severus, whom Lily pointedly accuses of hexing
  people in corridors when they annoy him or just because he can.

  kchuplis:
  That does not mean Severus doesn't do it. It means it really irritates Lily that *James* does. I suspect it is one of those cases of "if he wasn't such a prick I could really like him" and perhaps makes her more irritated with him than others.

  Carol:
  On a sidenote about James and Sirius, we keep hearing (from Lupin)
  that they kept him company on full moon nights out of friendship, but
  we also hear from Black that "the risk would have made it fun." Sirius
  himself wishes it were a full moon night, to which Remus grimly
  replies that he doesn't. Sirius, IMO, wants adventure and is
  completely indifferent to the suffering he undergoes during his
  transformations, and the guilt he feels at all the near-misses. 

  kchuplis:

  Agreed. I am not,nor ever have been a Sirius fan. Unlike others, I was not overly saddened by his death except that it was so hard on Harry. I think Sirius continued could have had a very bad effect on Harry or else, brought down another crushing blow at some point in the future to Harry by not being the "parent/friend" Harry was perceiving him as. But we all have friends that others can't care for. For whatever reason, James and Sirius were friends. I sometimes wonder if it would have lasted past Harry's babyhood.

  Carol:
  And
  note that he arrogantly refuses to help Remus study Transfiguration,
  stating that *he* already knows that stuff.James's joking about the
  werewolf question, in a voice loud enough to cause Remus concern, and
  his dismissal of Remus's lycanthropy as "your furry little problem" do
  not connote compassion in my view.
  kchuplis:
  Now I see "your furry little problem" as just a way to try to lighten Remus' load. I do not perceive that as being crass or mean. Just a silly way to refer to it in code. 

  Carol:
  So while I don't deny an early interest in the Dark Arts on Severus's
  part, rather odd on the part of a half-blood with a Muggle father if
  that father had any part in his upbringing, I see the memories as
  objective indicators that Severus was unhappy, that he hated James
  with good reason, and that James and Sirius really were arrogant,
  thoughtless little berks with no consideration even for the friend
  they ran with on full moon nights. 

  kchuplis:
  Hmm. Well, I don't see them that harshly. I do think they had thought for Remus, despite the fact that, yes, it was also fun to take risks. I do agree there is probably plenty of reasons for Snape and James to hate each other. I certainly don't see James as an angel and as stated above I definitely don't think Sirius was. In fact, Sirius was probably a distinctively bad influence on James IMO.

  Carol:
  And again, there's no indication
  that the curses Severus came to school knowing are any darker than,
  say, the Leg Locker curse or Ron's "Eat slugs!" 

  kchuplis:
  Snape up to his eyebrows in dark arts has to indicate that Snape had some kind of Dark Art knowledge beyond what most students had. I just can't interpret that any other way. Since they don't teach it at Hogwarts, I have to believe he learned it elsewhere. That is canon.

  Carol:
  (I still think, for reasons
  posted earlier, that the cutting curse in the Pensieve scene, which
  does *not* cause James to bleed unstoppably, is only a precursor of
  Sectum Sempra, which was invented for use against "enemies," IMO
  because those "enemies" had tried to murder him--at least in his view,
  an opinion no doubt helped by the fact that Sirius Black remained
  unrepentant for the rest of his life. Only Severus knew the
  countercurse to Sectum Sempra. 
  kchuplis:
  Possibly, but I think it is the sectumsempra curse that was badly aimed because Snape was off balance due to the whole incident or, perhaps, knowing what it did, Snape deliberately made it just a passing cut or was able to control it to a high degree. Harry not knowing just blasted full bore. I don't necessarily believe that the sectumsempra creates unstoppable bleeding. I think Malfoy got a full hit because Harry had no idea what it did. 
  Carol:

  Carol, agreeing that we're seeing only snippets of Severus's past but
  noting that he seems more unhappy than evil whereas James and Sirius
  look like inconsiderate, self-centered, arrogant bullies--perhaps, as
  you indicate, only one side of their otherwise charming personalities

  kchuplis:
  I don't believe Sirius had that charming a personality. I mean, yes, maybe in a certain way, but I don't htink I'd have liked him. I have to believe James was more charming than seen in that memory at least part of the time and certainly as he got older or people who knew him would have not touted him as such a good person. They would have been more neutral. Heck, most people really like me, but I can be a real bitch sometimes. *shrug*




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