Harry's assumption VS Everyone's assumption

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 151716

Tonks:
> > > Children are told what they need to know for their stage of 
life...
*(snip)*

Ceridwen:
> > Since the quoted post was a response to me, it's obvious that I 
believe this.  *(snip)*  Harry starts the series at eleven, and very 
importantly, as a baby in the WW...

Magpie:
> But I would say that the fifth book is where this truly breaks down,
as part of the text.  Dumbledore's "protection" of Harry in OotP is
a problem, and in the end I think it's even revealed that he's
crossed the line from responsible parenting to coddling for his own
reasons...
*(snip)*

Ceridwen:
Yes, I agree.  Harry is getting older, he's beginning to find his 
footing and is comfortable in his new world.  I particularly didn't 
like that Dumbledore didn't or wouldn't see that Harry and Snape 
wouldn't get along.  I know he had other issues, with Umbridge making 
enough trouble to get him out of his job, but if he couldn't sit 
Harry down and explain what was going on, then he should have asked 
McGonagall to do it.  She's Harry's Head of House, and he doesn't 
have issues with her like he has with Snape.  Snape would still be 
the person to teach Occlumency, but definitely not the person to 
explain why.  And here the problem of Dumbledore keeping things from 
his people rears its ugly head - McGonagall would need to be told too 
much for her to be able to sit Harry down and tell him.

Harry did look like an emotional teenager in HBP, but I thought that 
was partially explained by his 'channeling' Voldemort's own anger 
through their connection?  It really is hard to tell where 
the 'rebellious' stage in Harry's development ends, and the constant 
bile from Voldemort blends into it.  So I agree that it must have 
been hard for the adults around him to view him as getting older, 
when he was acting immaturely.

And now we get into the problem of what is enough, and what would 
cross that line and become too great a burden for the maturity of the 
child.  The only subject I've ever had to deal with my children in 
this vein is sex, and even then, it's difficult to say how much they 
need to know at any given time.  The adults did make mistakes, and 
Dumbledore most of all because he had decades more experience in 
dealing with children, then came McGonagall, but she was hampered by 
not knowing everything DD knew.  Molly has her own issues, typical 
mother issues, of not really seeing that the kids are more mature 
than she thinks.  And, the whole thing is muddied up by the 
connection between Harry and Voldemort, and just how much do we want 
Voldemort to know?

Magpie:
> Then there's also the fact that Dumbledore doesn't just keep
children out of the loop, he keeps adults out too.  Not that he
should tell them everything--I agree with the post saying that in a
military operation it's good not to let people know more than they
need to know.  

Ceridwen:
I wrote a little about compartmentalizing intelligence, so I'm glad 
you agree!  *g*  But there should be some continuity, where each 
Order member has a piece of the puzzle so that the whole can be 
reconstructed from its parts.  Galpalot's Law?  If so, then what is 
the missing piece?  Only Dumbledore would have that.  But, for the 
operation to run smoothly, all sections should be worked on by 
someone.  Harry, and therefore we, don't see that.

Magpie:
> But Dumbledore goes beyond that in the tradition of the Wise Old 
Man in fantasy.  People are expected to trust his whims and gut 
feelings without explanation.  No one in the Order has a good idea 
why they're trusting ex-Death Eater Snape so they can't judge him 
themselves, which puts them in the same childish position as Harry at 
times.  

Ceridwen:
Maybe another case of turing a genre at least sideways?  I think this 
is why I, and I think others, believe that Dumbledore told someone 
why he trusts Snape, or left some way to explain, like a memory ready 
for the Pensieve.  As an intelligence leader, each part of the puzzle 
has to be in someone's hands so they can be reassembled if 
necessary.  Why not this piece?  (Is this the Galpalot piece?)

It's also another reason why I don't see Dumbledore as a major 
military leader - he keeps too much from people.  Though, I only know 
what Harry's POV tells me.  I might be wrong.

Magpie:
> I've started re-reading HBP and in their first
trip to Diagon Alley we hear the Ministry wanted to give Harry a
normal security force but "Dumbledore thought" Hagrid would do fine--
and Hagrid then goes on to prove completely inadequate.  Nothing
terribly bad happens, but it's still kind of an interesting incident.

Ceridwen:
I've seen the Ministry as a third party to the conflict, not being on 
either side, but adversarial to both.  Normally, I would see the 
rebel faction as being the adversary to the government, but the story 
is told from Harry's POV and he's Dumbledore's man.  Maybe the 
adversary role of the Ministry is why Dumbledore wanted his own 
person there instead?

And, speaking of Harry as Dumbledore's *man*, Dumbledore did treat 
him more like an adult in HBP, I think.  He didn't cut Harry slack, 
and was short with him a few times.  He's expecting more thought from 
Harry now that he's gotten over his desire to coddle.  I don't think 
Harry fully rose to the occasion, keeping the secret of the Horcruxes 
from McGonagall as he did.  Yes, I know Dumbledore told him not to 
tell, but that was before Dumbledore's death, which changed things.  
Whoever becomes the leader of the Order will need to know all of the 
information, as well as what DD had planned.  Whoever this is, Harry 
will need to inform that person of his mission - and I don't think it 
will be Harry.  He's got a specific task to do, and can't be bothered 
managing everything else.

But, I think that Harry will do a lot of maturing in book 7.  It's 
the only chance he's got in the confines of the books.  He'll do his 
task, things will sink in, he'll discover things and grow.  I think 
book 7 will be very much Harry's book in this way.

Sorry about the 'stream of consciousness' going on.  My consciousness 
isn't that coherent.

Ceridwen.